Broken Ranger with Barbarian MC

[shadowoflameth]

Just thought of something. If you think your ranger is bad, imagine an Avenger with a Barbarian Paragon. Rediculous armor class with roll twice on each attack AND barbarian striker damage. What a nightmare!

I tried to built it using the PHB arrays. The Avenger needs Dex. and Wis. The Barbarian especially the Rageblood needs Con. and Str.

Try Ranger avenger. It occurs to me too, that if the ranger/bar is using a two handed weapon for the damage especially with power attack and has a Str. that high, he probably isn't using the archery path, and probably not two weapon fighting either. He's got the barbarian power attacks that he wanted, but he's putting a ranger class feature on the back burner to use them unless he's taken feats for superior weapon, quickdraw or whatever to compensate.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

5. What kind of "level appropriate soldiers" are you guys throwing at your players with an AC of 29? I'm taking my players through King of the Trollhaunt and I promise you that so far, there haven't been any AC29 monsters around. Do I need to tweak the written adventures that much?

well there is the real problem...Troll haunt is full of weak enemies...trolls alone are brute level 9. a 20 AC at that level and 100 hp is a joke.

We had some problems with our swordmage (one of the least damageing players in this group) killing them in 2 rounds...(some strikers do so in the suprise round) of cource or min/maxed tac lord/Battle captian helps...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I tried to built it using the PHB arrays. The Avenger needs Dex. and Wis. The Barbarian especially the Rageblood needs Con. and Str.

try to do point buy...drop a 16 in both Str and Wis, and a 13 in Con, an 11 in Int or Dex... go prime Avenger then multi...go for Longtooth shifter and you can totaly rock

 

[IanB]

Just thought of something. If you think your ranger is bad, imagine an Avenger with a Barbarian Paragon. Rediculous armor class with roll twice on each attack AND barbarian striker damage. What a nightmare!

This would be held in check at least somewhat by multiple ability dependence - the ranger+barbarian build has the advantage that all the powers use the same stat.

 

[Goumindong]

A Dwarf with 22 Str at level 12 is rather impressive.

Actually its 20, was a typo. 16+1 at 4 + 1 at 8 + 1 at 11 +1 at 2 = 20.

22 isn't that impressive and it would make my attack go up 1 but the listed damage go down 2[con would have to drop and/or wisdom would have to drop]

Either way, he isn't breaking any records with his Ranger and if i was running a striker i would feel he is in about the right spot.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

here is an Avenger barbarian build...

[sblock= level 1]====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
level 1
Longtooth Shifter, Avenger
Build: Isolating Avenger
Avenger's Censure: Censure of Retribution

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 13, Dex 10, Int 11, Wis 18, Cha 8.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 13, Dex 10, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 8.


AC: 13 Fort: 15 Reflex: 11 Will: 15
HP: 27 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 6

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +5, Athletics +11, Stealth +5, Endurance +8, Perception +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics, Arcana, Bluff -1, Diplomacy -1, Dungeoneering +4, Heal +4, History, Insight +4, Intimidate -1, Nature +4, Streetwise -1, Thievery

FEATS
Level 1: Berserker's Fury

POWERS
Avenger at-will 1: Overwhelming Strike
Avenger at-will 1: Bond of Retribution
Avenger daily 1: Temple of Light
Avenger encounter 1: Angelic Alacrity

ITEMS
Greatsword
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ====== [/sblock]

[sblock=level 8] ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
level 8
Longtooth Shifter, Avenger
Build: Isolating Avenger
Avenger's Censure: Censure of Retribution

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 20, Con 13, Dex 10, Int 11, Wis 20, Cha 8.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 13, Dex 10, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 8.


AC: 19 Fort: 22 Reflex: 17 Will: 22
HP: 69 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 17

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +9, Athletics +16, Stealth +9, Endurance +12, Perception +14

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Arcana +4, Bluff +3, Diplomacy +3, Dungeoneering +9, Heal +9, History +4, Insight +9, Intimidate +3, Nature +9, Streetwise +3, Thievery +4

FEATS
Level 1: Berserker's Fury
Level 2: Weapon Proficiency (Execution axe)
Level 4: Weapon Focus (Axe)
Level 6: Novice Power
Level 8: Acolyte Power

POWERS
Avenger at-will 1: Bond of Retribution
Avenger at-will 1: Overwhelming Strike
Avenger daily 1: Temple of Light
Avenger daily 5: Executioner's Cloak
Avenger encounter 1: Angelic Alacrity
Avenger encounter 3: Sequestering Strike
Avenger encounter 7: Blade Step (retrained to Avalanche Strike at Novice Power)
Avenger utility 2: Resonant Escape
Avenger utility 6: Wrath of the Divine (retrained to Combat Surge at Acolyte Power)

ITEMS
Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) of Exploits +2, Rending Execution axe +2, Fireflower Pendant +2
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ====== [/sblock]

[sblock=level 11] ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
level 11
Longtooth Shifter, Avenger, Paragon Multiclassing
Build: Isolating Avenger
Avenger's Censure: Censure of Retribution

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 21, Con 14, Dex 11, Int 12, Wis 21, Cha 9.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 13, Dex 10, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 8.


AC: 24 Fort: 23 Reflex: 19 Will: 23
HP: 88 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 22

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +11, Athletics +17, Stealth +10, Endurance +14, Perception +15

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +5, Arcana +6, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +10, Heal +10, History +6, Insight +10, Intimidate +4, Nature +10, Streetwise +4, Thievery +5

FEATS
Level 1: Berserker's Fury
Level 2: Weapon Proficiency (Execution axe)
Level 4: Weapon Focus (Axe)
Level 6: Novice Power
Level 8: Acolyte Power
Level 10: Adept Power
Level 11: Improved Armor of Faith

POWERS
Avenger at-will 1: Bond of Retribution (retrained to Howling Strike at Paragon Multiclassing)
Avenger at-will 1: Overwhelming Strike
Avenger daily 1: Temple of Light
Avenger daily 5: Executioner's Cloak (retrained to Silver Phoenix Rage at Adept Power)
Avenger daily 9: Fated Doom
Avenger encounter 1: Angelic Alacrity
Avenger encounter 3: Sequestering Strike
Avenger encounter 7: Blade Step (retrained to Avalanche Strike at Novice Power)
Avenger utility 10: Channel Endurance
Avenger utility 2: Resonant Escape
Avenger utility 6: Wrath of the Divine (retrained to Combat Surge at Acolyte Power)
Paragon Multiclassing: Curtain of Steel

ITEMS
Jagged Execution axe +3, Summoned Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) +3, Periapt of Cascading Health +2
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ====== [/sblock]

 

[Angellis_ater]

Warlock:
1d10 +2d6 +5(stat) +4 (bracers of the perfect shot) +3(implement)

Ok, to me this is (1d10+2d6+12) isn't anywhere near what the Ranger-Barbarian is throwing out (1d12+4d8+16).

]Rogue:
1d8(rapier) + 3d8(sneak) + 5(dex) + 3(cha or str) + 3(weapon) + 2(weapon focus) + 1(two weapon fighting).

Ok, this is a little better (4d8+14) but it is STILL not close to the Barb-Ranger (1d12+4d8+16).

And I am noticing that the player hasn't even fully optimized himself with this build since I am noticing that while his +16 comes from +5 Str, +3 enhancement, +2 bracers and +6 power attack, he is lacking weapon focus (adds another +2).

Incidentally - what are your guys 4d8 coming from? quarry is 2d8...

Reading the original post has certain benefits, such as noticing that my problem stems from him stacking the damage from Devastating Strike (1W+2d8+Str) with that of his Hunters Quarry (2d8) damage.

Every lvl 13 soldier in the mm is 28 or 29 ac.

Yes, I am beginning to understand that my problem lies with my use of published Wizards adventures, not the build itself.

See above: his at-will attack should be 4d8+16 with the same gear your ranger friend has, but he's targeting reflex and has at least +2 to hit more than the ranger does (+1 from better weapon prof, +1 from nimble blade feat).

I see 4d8+14, but granted that a slighty higher chance to hit makes a little difference.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Ok, to me this is (1d10+2d6+12) isn't anywhere near what the Ranger-Barbarian is throwing out (1d12+4d8+16).

No, but the 3d6+20s are getting there.

Ok, this is a little better (4d8+14) but it is STILL not close to the Barb-Ranger (1d12+4d8+16).

... it's 8.5 pts of damage away. Using only the original phb and only heroic feats. And then you take a paragon path.

Reading the original post has certain benefits, such as noticing that my problem stems from him stacking the damage from Devastating Strike (1W+2d8+Str) with that of his Hunters Quarry (2d8) damage.

Ahh, didn't realise that devastating was 2d8... thought it was 1d8

Yes, I am beginning to understand that my problem lies with my use of published Wizards adventures, not the build itself.

Yeah, brutes 4 levels below the players have awful defenses. Sounds like a pretty badly designed module.

I see 4d8+14, but granted that a slighty higher chance to hit makes a little difference.

At normal ac levels, it effectively means your ranger deals half his listed damage, while the rogue still deals his full listed (well, 19/20ths) damage, which means the rogue is beating the ranger.

 

[subrosas]

well there is the real problem...Troll haunt is full of weak enemies...trolls alone are brute level 9. a 20 AC at that level and 100 hp is a joke. .

Quoted for truth - the module is full of low level, easy to hit brutes.

It's a playground for strikers.

 

[outsider]

In the 4e paradigm, damage is easier to get, and less important, than to hit. It's a hard shift in perspective to make, as it was completely the opposite in every other edition of D&D.

The rogue builds suggested to you in this thread do less damage per hit than the ranger/barb. However, the gap narrows alot when you start looking at average damage per round, average damage per encounter, etc. The +2(or more) to hit bonus that the rogues have over this character will balance their overall damage output with the ranger/barb's, possibly surpassing it.