Buff, Scry, Teleport... A problem or not?

[Plane Sailing]

I was tempted to make it a poll, but resisted the temptation.

There is a discussion over in Wulf's storyhour about this tactic.
(and if you haven't read it, go and read it all RIGHT NOW... I'll wait...)

Back now?

It clearly isn't much of a problem until character levels are high enough that they can do this regularly (12th+ say?), but at those levels is it a problem?

What impact would you expect it to have on a game world where one group of people can turn up with all their buff spells running while the others are just waking up from their sleep?

How many of you (as PC's) have used this tactic, and what do you think of it?

How many of you (as DM's) have seen this tactic used by PCs (or used this tactic against PCs) and what do you think of it?


My campaign is about 7th-10th level at the moment, and so this hasn't been an issue; I'm deciding whether to agree a house rule or two before that time to limit this tactic (as it seems to have the potential to be particularly "abusive").

Having said that, someone playing in a high level game (KidC) thinks it is not a problem. She suggested a broader discussion outside of the storyhour board so here I am.

Thoughts and opinions please?

(I've deliberately avoided houserule discussions here, but I'd be interested in any core-rules restrictions on this practice. Obviously there are defensive measures available to clerics (hallow or forbiddance tied to dimensional anchor), what about for arcane casters?)

Cheers

 

[aliensex]

Don't forget, there are ways to detect the scry, and counter prepare for the big baddies. Also, there are some good higher level illusion spells to disquise what the scryer sees. That can always be used to good effect.

 

[ashockney]

Is it a problem? Sure.

It is a very deadly tactic, and anyone using it is granted a very significant advantage. It necessitates that "counter-measures" exist. There must be some risk involved in trying to do such a thing.

Increased ability to easily detect scrying.
Non-detection.
Illusions that mask against scry.
Teleportation redirection spells (ie, BoEM)

I have also seen a house-rule suggested that teleport require a "circle" to be drawn on the ground where one is coming and going to (or like in EQ, you could t-port from anywhere, but have pre-set locations which you are capable of transporting to). In this way, you still have the "escape hatch" effect of teleport while significantly limiting the concern of scry/teleport attack actions.

 

[Fenes 2]

Well, imc, teleport is a perk of a prestige class like the wayfinder, only with less spell progression - meaning that only a few specialists have access to that spell, and others pay through the nose for their services. I would also, should the question come up - we currently have only one spellcaster in 2 parties - prevent a PC from taking up the class.

Scry has not been taken by any PC in my two campaigns, so that is a non-issue as well. I usually assume that any major locations like temples and towers are warded against scrying "somehow" anyway.

With 2 factors neutralized, buffing is no problem.

It should go without mentioning (but I'll do it anyway): My NPCs do not use this tactic either.

I just have a problem whith the sort of high-level play style that involves buff-scry-teleport tactics. Not my cup of tea, I prefer the heroes to walk, ride, or maybe portal to their destinations.

 

[Joshua Randall]

I think it might be helpful to break down the problem (if it is one) into its component parts.

Buff - it's usually possible to buff before or during a battle. But the monsters can and should buff up, too.

Some of the individual buff spells have long durations or dramatic effects, which does get tiresome (arcane/divine casters always casting the same buff spells when the PCs wake up or just prior to an expected battle). I don't know of a non-houserule way around this.

On the other hand, the fighters always wear the same suit of plate mail and attack with the same Focused/Specialized Weapon... this isn't that different than arcane/divine buffing. You have to expect the PCs to max out appropriately.

Scry - as mentioned, there are ways to thwart scrying. Although you should let the PCs scry successfully sometimes, lest they become frustrated.

Is the gathering of information from afar a problem? If so, does this also apply to things like bardic knowledge and legend lore? I don't think it's a problem. I think there should be magical ways to gather information, just as there are non-magical ways (such as, um, Gather Information!).

Teleport - Instaneous travel has profound ramifications. Without extensive houserules, teleport (and its cousins like Dimension Door and Plane Shift) can be supremely powerful. Conventional travel becomes unnecessary in many cases, which thwarts one of the entire premises of D&D, i.e., location-based encounters.

As mentioned, clever antagonists can take measures to protect themselves against teleport. But again, consistently thwarting the PC's legitimate use of spells and abilities will frustrate them.

All in all, without houserules, I think you have to allow buff-scry-teleport: it's pretty much the optimal path for a high level party. Just remember that turnabout is fair play.

= = = = =

ObHouseRule: all teleportation spells leave their users dazed for one (or more) round(s) after arrival. This makes teleporting into battle much more dangerous. (Of course, the PCs can still teleport somewhere nearby before joining battle, so not all your problems are solved.)

 

[Plane Sailing]

Don't forget, there are ways to detect the scry, and counter prepare for the big baddies. Also, there are some good higher level illusion spells to disquise what the scryer sees. That can always be used to good effect.

Unfortunately Detect Scrying doesn't help much... it has a 24hr duration, which is great, but you get a round of "hey, I'm being scryed" then *pop* the buffed up guys appear. Similarly spotting the scry sensor doesn't help, since they can be right on top of you almost immediately.

You could use the time to teleport away or something, but then you could just be found again.

The high level anti-scry illusions tend to have too short a duration to make them worth using.

OK, I'll come up with a positive answer now: The standard Scry spell takes 1hr to cast, so you have more difficulty buffing beforehand (except for the hour/level buffs), and the scryed target has a bit of time to get countermeasures ready if you put on the lesser duration buffs before you go. Greater Scrying can be used instantly, but I guess that is one less Limited Wish you are facing at the far end

One idea I'm toying with is having all spells expire during a teleport.

 

[Johno]

Well, I don't think it is such a HUGE problem. Maybe a little niggling problem now and then, but nothing to really get your knickers in a knot.

Buff spells are easily handled. M's Disjunction, Greater Dispelling, Dispel Magic, are all there for a purpose.

Scry, well there are plenty of different ways to overcome this. And at the same time, You have to KNOW whom to scry. But supposing you do, is it reasonable that a BBEG is going to let the nosy neighbours stickybeak around, peeking in through his windows?

Of course not! Otherwise he wouldn't have achieved BBEG status.

And if you can't scry on the BBEG, are you sure you want to teleport into the BBEG fortress?

I think it (scry-buff-teleport) may cause a problem for some DMs at a few levels, (around 12-15). But beyond that, even those DMs must realise a challenging BBEG isn't so easily taken out.

Great Red Wyrms don't achieve their great age by allowing spies to penetrate their lairs unnoticed, wherther those spies be humanoid or magical.

 

[coyote6]

I think it's too effective, and too easy. My problem isn't so much with the PCs pulling it off -- go, PCs! -- but with keeping the PCs alive! Any decent PCs will make enemies -- from there, they'll either kill them all immediately, which makes for a boring campaign for me, or they'll have some people with grudges out to get 'em. When those people with grudges should have access to scry and teleport, how can I keep from slaughtering the PCs?

Example: one set of PCs have annoyed the Scarlet Brotherhood. Why shouldn't the Brotherhood bring up a couple-three osyluths, scry the PCs at night, then have the invisible devils teleport without error into the midst of the sleeping PCs, and slaughter them?

The combination seems so very effective, and so relatively difficult to defend against, that every conflict between 9th+ level opponents should degenerate to a contest of who can scry+teleport first. That strikes me as not only boring, but as being a setting that's less fun than one where armies have to clash and assassins have to sneak.

I at least want there to be a relatively cheap and easy defense against such tactics.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

My campaign isn't anywhere near having this problem yet, but (as I posted in the story hour), my planned tactic to have the bad guy either:

- Cast an anti-magic shell on detecting the scry, or
- Ready an appropriate dispel for when the others teleport in.

Alternately, would a dispel magic dispel the scrying sensor? You rule that it takes a certain period of time (certainly more than one round) to study the area to count as anything from a "viewed once" to "studied carefully" result. Knock out the scrying sensor and you increase the chance of sending the teleporters off target. A rule of thumb might be: scried 1 minute = viewed once; scried 10 minutes = studied casually; scried 30 minutes = studied carefully.

Other solutions:

- Up the scrying DC. (Doesn't address the tactic but decreases the amount it is used)

- Daze 1 round on teleport (I kind of like this in general).

I'd prefer tactical solutions as opposed to metagame ones, so you don't completely cut the rug out from under PCs.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Doesn't the DMG have rules for raising an encounter's EL when you give the bad guys a significant advantage?

I'd either reduce the levels of the attackers and grant the same XP, or boost the EL and grant more XP. Don't use EL of party level +5 or higher until really high levels.