Buff, Scry, Teleport... A problem or not?

[incognito]

I agree that it was not a staright EL11.

But - 'll say this, there are plenty of times palyers fight on grounds that are unfavorable. At low level, this can be as simplyas a 3' wall. At higher level, this can be as ugly as UNHOLY/desecrated area with greater dispellgin attached.

EL 13 should be "challenging" to the players.

My point was simply that if the DM wishes to optimize his comabatants against a party, then they will fail.

A CR3 shadow can attack with 50% cover of more from underneath a player character, while they sleep...

 

[Shard O'Glase]

shard,

Eventually the wizard/cleric had to rest.

The Rogue failed to notice the sensor.
And ELs are not increased by the situation, the XP award is.

The rope trick is the solution, I agree. Although the wizard could've dispelled it. Then all PCs are prone. And what to do with the bag of holding?

Anyway - the best solution I've seen is the Divination: When will be be attacked by a scrying teleporting party.

Not sure about this but the rogue should be able to spot the sensor with spot. the rogue woudn't know its a scrying sensor, but the rogue would know something invis is near by, which is enough to put everyone on alert.(spot DC 20 for invis things within 30') And as one of two classes with spot as a class skill the rogue is almost duty bound to max this skill out.

Rope trick helps a lot because the wizard wouldn't know where the party is to be able to teleport near by and then dispel it. Really past 7th level the party just can't camp anymore, it wrecks some people image of an adventuring party outdors and camping, but the enemies are just to powerful to rely upon a simple sentry.

And I believe ELs are increased by the situaiton CRs aren't though.

This just saves the wiz, but consider this contingency, D-Door me to a safe area at least 200ft distant when ever I am surprised by a fight. Hav clarivoyance and D-door memorized or on scrolls at all times, this gets you a way and gives you a round or two to prepare and get back to the fight, and actually be able to do something other than gurgle your last breath.

Oh and non-detection to see past it you need to make a caster level check vs 11+caster level of the castr/amulet. At 9th level this guy would of needed a 13(possible but far from guaranteed) to find the party.(cast on your self and it is DC of 15+caster level and since it lasts hours it may be worth it for a wiz to cast it on hm self from a scroll now and then if concerned about scrying some day even if he has an amulet.

Scrolls remind me of the wizards greatest benies scribe scroll at level one. It really is worth it to prepare a large assortment of scrolls for what if encounters, including scrolls with metamagic feats attached. (detect scrying, extended/enlarged see invis, persistent shield/mirror image, chained haste, when can cast 7th level spells antimagic with the shapeable area metamagic on it making it a cone, non detection, teleport scrolls etc.) It gets some what silly but at the higher levels you realy do have to start thinking what if someone tried X against us, is there a way to counter it, if so what scrolls should I make so we can deal with the situation.

 

[incognito]

Cor,

I was not the DM, but after a TPK, the DM shared his character notes - my meory is slightly sketch but I'll do my best.

According to Mixed group EL of CR11 + CR6 = EL...11!

The party was invading enemy territor an enemy that has more than just 4 poeple working for them. Our DMs reasoning was: In a world where scry-'buff-port is so effective - would you have a light party?

WRT Wizard spells, not everyone got a L2 buff (the Psycic Warrio can buff himself), he has 5 level L3 spells, and did use 6 - I think here was a potion of haste invovled (which brings us to 6). He has 4 level 4 slots (+1 INT, +1 Specialist). He actually used a 5th level slot for an improved invisibility!

The 1/2ling: 4 levels of fighter = +3 feats, L7 character +3 feats
# of attacks - Haste partial action = move. Full attack with rapid shot + 5' step with a +6 BAB gives 3 arrows (+4/+4/-1).
.

Lighting: the area they were "hiding" in was well lit (reasobaly). A definite mistake on the party's part. I confess.
When the party rolled for initiative, the wizard won (granted he had improved init), so the battle was on (minus the Wizard, who went down round one...)

I think you have forgotten about improved invisibility! The Rogue, Wizard, and Psy Warrior were all invisible. How is the cleric or fighter, or whomever to know exactly where to sunder to!

anyway...

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I think you have forgotten about improved invisibility! The Rogue, Wizard, and Psy Warrior were all invisible. How is the cleric or fighter, or whomever to know exactly where to sunder to!

anyway...

I think part of the problem was it just wasn't a simple b/s/t it was a very heavy buff/s/t. The improved invis makes it a very tough encounter on its own, add in the other factos and this encounter is almost impossible for any but the most paranoid parties to survive, and how paranoid you are is highly dependent on the feel of the campaign up to that pont.

In the game I was playing it was heavy stealth/intrigue so we quickly got in the habit of protection overkill. Someone could see invis at all times, methods for others to see invis are usually at hand, eventually everyone could constantly see invis and in the dark, we always slept in secure shelters(usually rope tricks on top of that), always had detect div, non-detection, persitent this, exteneded that etc up.

Once you introduce the B/S/T this type of over paranod mentality is needed to survive. If you don't want to play in that style of game people just can't introduce B/S/T into the game. I think you might want to discuss it with your DM, do we really want to play in that type of game or do we want to play in a low amgic game, or a ame with all the spells and whistles but where magically people don't use really cut-throat tactics.

 

[Metalsmith]

No actually the first question is what gives you the right to decide who is evil.
The second question is now that you have decided that a person is evil where do you draw the line as to which evil guy you are going to kill.

See Above I already answered that question. You even Quoted some of my text below.

that is my one of my points right there. You are now not only the judge, jury and executioner, but also the police who rounds the guy up, and the 911 person who decides which calls he will and which calls he won't take. How many roles can a guy take on before he becomes a little too involved to make an objective decision regarding someones death.

There you go again mixing 20th century morality and ethics in a Fantasy Campaign Setting. You are comparing Apples and Cows, be carefull you may hurt yourself.
Remember, 9 alignements in this Fantasy game.

Detection spells wouldn't do crap in this case. Lets take a 20th level fighter who just so happens to be the most evil sonofa$%^&* around. Detect evil comes up moderate. Now take a cleric of an evil deity who really hasn't done anything truely despicable, but is just all around not a nice guy. Cheats on taxes, stabs his friends in the back, manipulates the system and steals from the donation box. If he happens to be above 4th, our detection shows him as strong! Which would indicate that he deserves the death fairy far more than the murdering raping, child stealing fighter. What are augury and divination going to do for you?

From the Cleric you describe he's not really evil. You may want to follow up with Know Alignment.

If they are both detecting as Evil they are both deserving of some attention.

Divination Spells are going to point you in the right direction and reputation is also a pretty good indicator. (silly augury questions deleted)

No DM worth his salt should say yes or no. Commune is your best shot, but even the answers from that are going to be biased to whatever alignment your god happens to be.

Answers Biased toward whatever alignment your god happens to be?! You Don't Say!
Welcome to Fantasy Setting DnD! Where have you been? We've missed you.

If you look back and reread your first response, you might notice the reason for the talking down. Call someone silly, and they might take offense.

You may want to read my post again. I never called you silly. I called the assertation that you make it Highly Illegal silly.

Only your contiuned confusion about Reality and a Fantasy setting makes me Want to call you silly. But I haven't.

Anyway, it is true that I am taking the position of the LG character ( the pandoras box situation is something all alignments must consider ). You suggested that it would be silly to make this type of thing illegal. Now that you are defending the other alignments ( by indicating I had 'forgotten' about them ), I take it you agree that a LG character would have a problem with this?

I do not agree.
You should stop making assumptions about other people's Campaigns and Characters. No two people will exactly agree on the alignment system. They will agree Evil, like Art, you know it when you see it.

As for your morals and ethics problem, it does not apply to all alignments. The Evils will Laugh at you (the Smart Evils will agree with you only to allay suspicion), The Neutrals will Shrug, and the Goods will split themselves up nicely. between the Crusaders and Quiche Eaters.

My original post was merely to indicate that a paladin or cleric of a lawful good god would have problems with this.

You should have stated it in the first place instead of going off on a 20th century Morlals and Ethics tangent.

Please explain how this relates to the pandoras box situation...I don't see how it does, and its position in your response confuses me.

What position? I left it out on purpose. Posters, like Petrosian, Nail, and others have already covered the Obvious problems and solutions of attacking and defending against the tatic.
The "Bad Guy" can always make the decision to leave the "Good Guys" alone and not draw their attention or better yet, point them at one of their "Evil Rivals".

Assassinating them should make them sick to their stomach.

You're probably not Teleporting around as the Death Fairy unless the "Bad Guy" has done something to you.
In which case you are getting vengence, payback ect. But we've been down this road before....

Metalsmith

 

[Spatula]

Not sure about this but the rogue should be able to spot the sensor with spot.

The only way to notice a scry sensor is with a DC 20 Scry check (which can be used untrained). Spot doesn't help unfortunately.

I think part of the problem was it just wasn't a simple b/s/t it was a very heavy buff/s/t.

I don't agree. If you're going to try and pull this tactic off, you want every advantage you can possibly muster - you don't know for sure if you're catching them off guard or not, and you probably don't know what defenses your targets might have set up. And if things go badly, you might not be able to get away (spellcaster gets knocked out or hit with a dimensional anchor). So you want to stack the battle in your favor as much as you possibly can.

That degree of buffing wouldn't even be all that hard to set up if you have time to prepare - scrolls or wands of the longer-lasting spells (like the stat-boosters) would be very handy and not too hard to create.

 

[Endur]

Bad guy defense: Psychic Poisons

The Book of Vile Darkness has a defense for bad guys that don't want to be scried.

They can cast a spell to create a psychic poison. Basically, its a one hour per level buff spell that zaps anyone that casts a divination on them.

So, if Cleric X tries to scry the evil Boss, the Cleric gets zapped.

Psychic Poisons can be placed on persons, locations, and objects.

Only drawback is, naturally enough, in high level campaigns how many characters are immune to poison (answer everyone that has a heroe's feast twice a day).

Tom

 

[Coredump]

HAHAHA....

Incognito, thank you for being so gentle I missed some *very* basic things.... (like forgetting about the bonus feats at 3/6/9/etc.) And ya, I also kinda forgot that you can't see invisible people. (what a maroon...) Looks like you are pretty screwed.


But this brings up an unanswered question.

How much area can you see while scrying?? Whenever I think of it, I envision seeing the target, and only a few feet around him (maybe a 10' radius) But I am not sure if that matches what others envision, and the spell description is a bit vague.

.

 

[bret]

[snip]
Here are examples to back my position. With our current system of laws do we endorse assassination? No. Do we endorse vigilantism? No. Even when they seem utterly and completely warrented, it is still illegal to assassinate someone. If someone were to approach the police and say they had shot the 'serial killer of the era' would they be given a medal? Heck no, they would be thrown in jail and prosecuted.
[ snip ]
Even after all of this I see a place for your black and white style of play. I'm not saying it wrong, and I can see why after dealing with the necessary complexities of the world you would want to sit down and play a in black and white world. However if you ever find yourself looking for something more, try throwing some real life issues into your game.

I would like to point out a couple of things:

1. Anyone who supports George Bush, Jr does support assassination. What do you think a 'one bullet plan' means? He revoked the presidential order that forbade assassination. My own views on the issue differ significantly from his, but so far no one has put him in jail.

2. In the default D&D world, the alignment components (Good/Evil/Law/Chaos) are measurable quantities. To quote the PHB (pg 87, first column, end of first paragraph on alignment):

Good and evil are not philosophical concepts in the D&D game. They are the forces that define the cosmos.

Still, the Scry/Buff/Teleport scheme has a few problems:
1. They need someplace to teleport to. If someone is camping out in the wilderness, you really need some distinguishing feature to lock onto. Just as you can't teleport into the warlord's tent if you don't know where it is, you can't teleport into the victims camp if you don't know where it is.
2. Scry probably isn't going to give you enough information in the dark of night to judge where someone is. The scry spell focuses on a target creature, not their surroundings. Unlike Clairvoyance, you aren't even guarenteed a 10' radius if you can't see normally.
3. Anyone able to see invisible can spot the sensor. The spell gives a second method (Scry check vs. DC 20) to notice the sensor. There is no reason to believe that anyone able to detect an invisible creature or object could not also find the sensor.
4. Why hadn't the group moved camp after seeing the sensor once? I certainly would have, and probably looked into setting up some traps as well.
5. Did the GM of the near TPK really consider the weight of equipment when teleporting in all those people? I've had fighters that carried over 100lbs of equipment all by themselves.

If I spent some more time looking through the books, I could probably come up with a few more ideas.

Back to the TPK, as the surviving Rogue I would have looked to try and retrieve the corpses. If I can raise my friends, I can also give them a very good description of the fellow who teleported all those people in like that.

 

[green slime]

I find myself agreeing with Petrosian.

I think I need to sit down...