Buffy 3/24 (spoilers)

[Staffan]

Spike wasn't good, per se. He was forced to act in a non-evil way because he had a chip in his head - the first thing he did when he thought the chip had stopped working was go on the hunt.
He was also trying to stay on Buffy's good side, because he wanted her. He also tried to rape her before he got his soul back - this is what forced him to think about the issue ("It's the chip! Steel and wires and silicon. It won't let me be a monster. And I can't be a man.") Somehow, he came to the conclusion that it would be better to get his soul back and have the shadow of a chance with Buffy than it would be to get the chip out and be able to be a monster again.

 

[Merlion]

Well thats just a difference of opnion...as far as I'm concerned he was good(not perfect). he fell in love with Buffy. he looked after her and Dawn and the others. And eventualy(but before regaining his soul) pretty much stopped having any desire to go back to the monster.
His behaviour hasnt really changed apreciably since he got his soul back. He acts pretty much the same as he has been for some time

 

[Hand of Evil]

His behaviour hasnt really changed apreciably since he got his soul back. He acts pretty much the same as he has been for some time

This is interesting in that it shows that being and doing good are choices. Angel is good, Spike likes being bad and being noticed for it...and likes to be noticed for being good too but it is not the same thing as being good, doing the look at me.

 

[Tauric]

I agree with Hand of Evil, whenever Spike (pre-soul) did something good, he was sure to bring it to Buffy's attention, which to me means that he was doing good not for its own sake, but for the praise/rewards it could get him.

Also, Merlion, when did they explicitly state that vamps can't eat food? I remember several remarks about not breathing, and Angel's surprise when electro-girl started his heart recently, but I also specifically remember Spike drinking alcohol (on several occasions), and him stating that he liked the taste of food, specifically the "blooming onion" that "got remodeled right off the menu" at the Bronze.

 

[Chun-tzu]

I agree with Hand of Evil, whenever Spike (pre-soul) did something good, he was sure to bring it to Buffy's attention, which to me means that he was doing good not for its own sake, but for the praise/rewards it could get him.

Not really. After Buffy's mom died, Spike brings flowers to leave for the Summers girls. Xander and Anya accuse him of doing this to curry Buffy's favor, and Spike tells them to sod off, that Buffy's mom was a class act and treated him like a man, and leaves. Anya notices that there is no card with the flowers, i.e., there's no way Buffy would have known they were from him.

Spike has also been very protective of Dawn. When Dawn wants to raise her mom, Spike goes along to watch out for her. Dawn accuses Spike of doing so to get on Buffy's good side, and Spike threatens Dawn and tells her to never mention this to Buffy.

Right after Buffy has been raised, and the demon gang has just been routed, Spike returns to the Summers home looking for Dawn. He was clearly very concerned about her, and as far as he knew, Buffy was dead and gone.

Those are three very specific instances of Spike doing something for the Summers women without Buffy in the equation. Ever since Spike's been in love with Buffy, he's been pretty much a sympathetic and likeable (in a good guy way) character. The big exception, of course, is when he tried to rape Buffy. But really, he just hasn't been the evil guy that he used to be in the longest time.

 

[DM_Matt]

Not really. After Buffy's mom died, Spike brings flowers to leave for the Summers girls. Xander and Anya accuse him of doing this to curry Buffy's favor, and Spike tells them to sod off, that Buffy's mom was a class act and treated him like a man, and leaves. Anya notices that there is no card with the flowers, i.e., there's no way Buffy would have known they were from him.

Spike has also been very protective of Dawn. When Dawn wants to raise her mom, Spike goes along to watch out for her. Dawn accuses Spike of doing so to get on Buffy's good side, and Spike threatens Dawn and tells her to never mention this to Buffy.

Right after Buffy has been raised, and the demon gang has just been routed, Spike returns to the Summers home looking for Dawn. He was clearly very concerned about her, and as far as he knew, Buffy was dead and gone.

Those are three very specific instances of Spike doing something for the Summers women without Buffy in the equation. Ever since Spike's been in love with Buffy, he's been pretty much a sympathetic and likeable (in a good guy way) character. The big exception, of course, is when he tried to rape Buffy. But really, he just hasn't been the evil guy that he used to be in the longest time.

Part of al that dawn stuff was that before the battle at the end of The Gift, he swore in some reletively solemn fashion to protect Dawn if Buffy died.

 

[Chun-tzu]

Part of al that dawn stuff was that before the battle at the end of The Gift, he swore in some reletively solemn fashion to protect Dawn if Buffy died.

Perhaps, but it changes nothing. If Spike were evil (as in soulless, has-no-trace-of-a-conscience evil), he wouldn't think twice about breaking such a promise.

We've clearly seen a Spike, despite not having a soul, has protected those who needed his protection, been a trustworthy ally, shown compassion and affection for Buffy and her family (remember when he SPARED Buffy, despite intending to kill her?), remained faithful to his mother, and possibly even been in love. This guy was nothing like Angelus, who was truly evil despite any kind of restraints.

Here's the problem with this: if vampires are capable of such actions, even without a soul, then Buffy's actions as a vampire slayer become much more questionable. Buffy's still a protector, but there's a huge difference between killing something that's pure evil, and killing something that just happens to be higher up on the food chain.

 

[Negative Zero]

i was having a discussion with a friend today about the whole vamp-soul-good-evil-Spike thing, and he made a few very interesting observations which i'm inclined to agree with:

the whole deal with Spike, is that he's a unique character. has been from the beginning. he's had the capacity to love from his first appearance in Sunnydale. as the series progressed, we've been shown that William, the man Spike used to be, was a HIGHLY emotional person. he was always in love, always caring, misguided perhaps and a crappy ... no bloody awful poet, but emotional none the less

it now seems that those very strong emotions, the center of his being, dominated the demon that took over after his vamification. this idea was supported by the events in this episode. (or maybe the episode created the idea, who knows ) but the bottom line here is that Spike, as a character, is very very complicated and also, very unique; i.e. normal rules don't apply.

...Here's the problem with this: if vampires are capable of such actions, even without a soul, then Buffy's actions as a vampire slayer become much more questionable. Buffy's still a protector, but there's a huge difference between killing something that's pure evil, and killing something that just happens to be higher up on the food chain.

now with regards to all of this, first of all, we've seen lots of other "demons" who are not "evil" per se. are vampires capable of being "good?" who knows. i'll bet probably under the right circumstances, though those right circumstances might be so close to impossible that it'd make no difference.

even if it is true, it doesn't change a thing with Buffy. she's still got a job to do. doesn't matter if they're irredeemably evil or just a superior race. humans would still need a champion/protector.

~NegZ

 

[Hand of Evil]

It is not that Spike is evil, it is that he is not good. Yes, he has done some things that are nice but he likes to be the bad boy, the trouble maker, the big bad. He just does not want anyone to know about the nice things, doing nice is not the same as good. The only time I could really say he did good was his protecting Dawn.

 

[Negative Zero]

It is not that Spike is evil, it is that he is not good. Yes, he has done some things that are nice but he likes to be the bad boy, the trouble maker, the big bad. He just does not want anyone to know about the nice things, doing nice is not the same as good. The only time I could really say he did good was his protecting Dawn.

now it may just be because i'm contrary by nature but:

interesting points, but i disagree with the rationale behind your last comment. protecting someone you care about isn't necessarily a "good" action. the evil warlord who sends out his best guards to look after his son, isn't automatically doing it out of "goodness." he's more likely just being selfish in that he knows he can't live forever and wants his blood line to continue to rule the rabble after he's gone.

~NegZ