Building Eberron (Using non-Eberron books)

[stonegod]

The Artificers with wands would be zapping out Twinned Orbs. Of the dragon could even cast Spell Immunity or Greater Spell Immunity, it isn't effective to argue that a spell is not overpowered because it could be stopped by such a specific defense--he could also carry a Ring of Counterspelling vs the Orb, but the fact that the enemy has to have a specific counter for that spell to live indicates that it is way out of whack.

If you up the Artificers to level 9, they can even take Wand Mastery to add extra damage to insult.

No arguments here.

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

Sorry to butt in, but I'm a bit curious as to the flavor objections to the "oriental" classes that don't also play against the shaolin style monks that are a canon part of the setting.

The ninja seems like a resonable option, especially for members of the elven dragonmarked houses. I see no need to disallow it, other that excessive occidentalism.

The only problem I have with the wu jen and shujenja is that they aren't really meant to be used in the same game, the way they were presented in OA seemed to suggest using one or the other. I wish that the core wizard allowed for elemental specialties (since that's a longstanding fantasy staple), but as it is these guys seem to be the only game in town.

As for the CW samurai, my only beef with it is the fact that it sucks. On the other hand, the OA samurai is a great addition to my own game, particularly useful for the elite warriors of the Valenar and Dhakaani. Because of their limited weapon enchantment abilities, after fourth level I count them as half-casters for those characters that multiclass with artificer.

 

[Ferrix]

So here are my few comments for now...

Classes:
PHB II: Knight, Beguiler, Dragon Shaman, Duskblade; all cool and acceptable within the realm of the Eberron world. I don't particularly agree with making the Knight's challenge ability supernatural, sure it doesn't always make sense, but oh well, I don't think it's going to break the game and I think the more house rules the more difficult things become. I really want to play a Beguiler

Complete Books: Scout, Spellthief, Warlock, Spirit Shaman, Swashbuckler, Hexblade, Ardent, Lurk, Divine Mind. All of those, sure, good with me. The war mage I could toss either way really. I despise the favored soul cause it stomps the poor life out of the sorcerer comparably (all good saves, special abilities, more spells known) not cool. Swashbuckler, while it doesn't make me dance for joy and does encourage dipping for three levels, at least lets a character play a lightly armored warrior with decent skill points.

Races of Books: Allowing the racial substitution levels from Races of Eberron is agitating in that only the Eberron races get those nice handy customizations that are quite cool from the other Races books. Perhaps we should either make our own racial substitutions that are Eberron focused or use the ones from the Races books.

Heroes of Horror: Archivist is very cool and makes a ton of sense in the Eberron setting.

Magic of Incarnum: Burn the book, doesn't fit at all.

Tome of Magic: Binders are cool, the rest ditch it.

Spells & Powers:
Orb spells... if you make them SR yes, give them something a little more.

Spikes & brambles... the bonus was changed to an enhancement bonus to damage, so they no longer stack, let 'em in. I've never seen it abused except at high near epic levels.

Wraithstrike... limit it to your next melee attack this round. Then create a greater version (level 3 or 4) which does what the normal one does.

Spell Compendium: let it in, but require the spells to be found if not a spontaneous caster.

Complete Psionic: use the new powers but perhaps neglect the changes it made to prior powers that weren't put into normal errata for the XPH.

Feats:

Complete Divine: Divine Metamagic (put the restriction the Incantatrix has so that you must be able to normally cast the metamagiced version), Disciple of the Sun (perhaps instead of a turn attempt require an action point or 2 to be spent).

Complete Arcane: The spell-like ability feats make the Dragonmarked feats pale in comparison partly, usually granting three spells for one feat, compared to one spell. Remove the Sudden Metamagic feats. Change the Double Wand Wielder feat to say instead of just expending 2 charges instead of 1, doubling the number of charges expended through it.

Complete Adventurer: Really, I'd rather see some feat abilities get folded into skills to make them more useful rather than requiring a feat on them (Goad, Extraordinary Concentration & Spell Aim, Appraise Magic Value, Disguise Spell, Hear the Unseen, Improved Diversion)

 

[Rystil Arden]

I despise the favored soul cause it stomps the poor life out of the sorcerer comparably

The Sorcerer already sucks compared to just the core classes--that isn't really a fair reason to disallow non-cores.

I don't particularly agree with making the Knight's challenge ability supernatural, sure it doesn't always make sense, but oh well, I don't think it's going to break the game and I think the more house rules the more difficult things become.

It either needs to not work on someone with an 8th-level Mind Blank spell up that makes them immune to the 9th-level Mind Control Powers of Master Telepaths (but somehow not the 1st-level Knight), or it needs to automatically fail against an opponent who has determined ahead of time that no matter what happens, he or she will never attack the Knight first, ever. It makes no sense to keep both. Since the opponent who decided ahead of time not to attack the Knight is subjective, I'd prefer just making it Su and Mind-Affecting. If the players can go to the trouble to buy a separate book for the class, they can check a minor errata we make that probably won't come up.

I really want to play a Beguiler

Me too! Changeling Beguiler ready to go if/when it is accepted! If it isn't, she/he/it'll be a Telepath instead.

Perhaps we should either make our own racial substitutions that are Eberron focused

That could be cool. Eberron has way different flavour for many races than the default setting, so I disagree with the Races line other than Eberron on flavour grounds, but I would definitely approve something like this if balanced (and yes, I consider allowing something more powerful to be balanced if it is for a poor race combo)

Orb spells... if you make them SR yes, give them something a little more.

Why? They're Conjuration. You can bar yourself from Evocation and use these anyway. In fact, this line of spells completes a group of spells that allow you to do this and still be combat effective which is sad for Evocation because Conjuration has other cool stuff and BOOM is the only thing Evocation does. Making the Conjuration spells uber-better as well was effectively spitting on Evocation after already marginalising it. I'm okay with marginalising it, but let's not spit on it too.

Wraithstrike... limit it to your next melee attack this round. Then create a greater version (level 3 or 4) which does what the normal one does.

Limiting it to next melee attack would still break your game. So would a Greater version at 4th. Khyber, so would a Greater version at 7th that does what the 2nd level spell does! It would just take longer to level up that far. What wouldn't break ytour game was a 2nd-level version that had a standard action casting time and applied only to your next attack--and it wouldn't break your game because it takes a while for that to become better than True Strike and it has the same casting time. It would eventually become better than True Strike though even so. A fair 2nd-level spell.

Divine Metamagic (put the restriction the Incantatrix has so that you must be able to normally cast the metamagiced version)

This eliminates the uber-brokenness, but it is still way too powerful for a feat. It's nearly the Incantatrix's capstone to do this--it should not be a 1st-level Cleric feat.

 

[drothgery]

This eliminates the uber-brokenness, but it is still way too powerful for a feat. It's nearly the Incantatrix's capstone to do this--it should not be a 1st-level Cleric feat.

Eh. As erratad, it's really not that great (since it only applies to divine spells, and only applies to one metamagic which you have to have as a prereq); it's arguably worse than Sudden Metamagic unless you've got buckets of turn attempts for one reason or another (frex, maximize would take four turn attempts; so you'd need a 20 Cha or extra turn attempts acquired by some other means to do it more than once a day).

 

[Rystil Arden]

Eh. As erratad, it's really not that great (since it only applies to divine spells, and only applies to one metamagic which you have to have as a prereq); it's arguably worse than Sudden Metamagic unless you've got buckets of turn attempts for one reason or another (frex, maximize would take four turn attempts; so you'd need a 20 Cha or extra turn attempts acquired by some other means to do it more than once a day).

Except the Sudden Metamagics have high prereqs to get to the good ones. You can Divine Metamagic: Persistant Spell (or Quicken if CA isn't allowed yet) at level 1 if you have the Charisma.

 

[Ferrix]

The Sorcerer already sucks compared to just the core classes--that isn't really a fair reason to disallow non-cores.

I still find the class reprehensible.

It either needs to not work on someone with an 8th-level Mind Blank spell up that makes them immune to the 9th-level Mind Control Powers of Master Telepaths (but somehow not the 1st-level Knight), or it needs to automatically fail against an opponent who has determined ahead of time that no matter what happens, he or she will never attack the Knight first, ever. It makes no sense to keep both. Since the opponent who decided ahead of time not to attack the Knight is subjective, I'd prefer just making it Su and Mind-Affecting. If the players can go to the trouble to buy a separate book for the class, they can check a minor errata we make that probably won't come up.

Nothing in the 1st level knight's challenge ability to do that, he merely gains a bonus to attack, damage and Will saves against that target.

The higher level Test of Mettle ability, quoted here from the excerpt

Test of Mettle (Ex): Starting at 4th level, you can shout a challenge to all enemies, calling out for the mightiest among them to face you in combat. Any target of this ability must have a language of some sort and an Intelligence score of 5 or higher. Creatures that do not meet these requirements are immune to the test of mettle. You must have line of sight and line of effect to the targets of this ability.

As a swift action, you can expend one use of your knight's challenge ability to cause all your enemies within 100 feet with a CR greater than or equal to your character level minus 2 to make Will saves (DC 10 + 1/2 your class level + your Cha modifier). Creatures that fail this save are forced to attack you with their ranged or melee attacks in preference over other available targets. If a foe attacks by casting a spell or using a supernatural ability, he must target you with the attack or include you in the effect's area.

An opponent compelled to act in this manner is not thrown into a mindless rage and does not have to move to attack you in melee if doing so would provoke attacks of opportunity against him. In such a case, he can use ranged attacks against you or attack any opponents he threatens as normal. If anyone other than you attacks the target, the effect of the test of mettle ends for that specific target.

If you are reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by an opponent forced to attack you due to this ability, you gain one additional use of your knight's challenge ability for that day. This additional use comes from increased confidence and the knowledge that you have proved your mettle as a knight against your enemies by calling out foes even against overwhelming odds. This additional use disappears if you have not used it by the start of the next day. You can only gain one additional use of your knight's challenge ability in this manner per day.

The effect of a test of mettle lasts for a number of rounds equal to 5 + your Charisma bonus (if any). Whether a creature fails or succeeds on its save against your test of mettle, it can only be targeted by this effect once per day.

It says nothing in the ability that the target is forced to attack, just that the target must attack the knight if he does attack anyone at all. This is after a will save. It's not going to break your game to leave it the way it is Rystil.

That could be cool. Eberron has way different flavour for many races than the default setting, so I disagree with the Races line other than Eberron on flavour grounds, but I would definitely approve something like this if balanced (and yes, I consider allowing something more powerful to be balanced if it is for a poor race combo)

Agreed.

Why? They're Conjuration. You can bar yourself from Evocation and use these anyway. In fact, this line of spells completes a group of spells that allow you to do this and still be combat effective which is sad for Evocation because Conjuration has other cool stuff and BOOM is the only thing Evocation does. Making the Conjuration spells uber-better as well was effectively spitting on Evocation after already marginalising it. I'm okay with marginalising it, but let's not spit on it too.

Cause you are taking something away from them which really I've never seen a problem with in game.

Limiting it to next melee attack would still break your game. So would a Greater version at 4th. Khyber, so would a Greater version at 7th that does what the 2nd level spell does! It would just take longer to level up that far. What wouldn't break ytour game was a 2nd-level version that had a standard action casting time and applied only to your next attack--and it wouldn't break your game because it takes a while for that to become better than True Strike and it has the same casting time. It would eventually become better than True Strike though even so. A fair 2nd-level spell.

I think this would be over reacting. True Strike is a 1st level spell, Wraithstrike a 2nd level spell, make Wraithstrike apply only to your next melee attack and it's basically equal to True Strike if actually a bit worse (particularly at low-levels) even if you get it off as a swift action. A +20 to hit and negate concealment is far more useful than a touch attack unless you are fighting opponents with over a +20 bonus to AC that doesn't apply to touch AC's (which would be quite a while in any game I've ever played in). Do the math.

This eliminates the uber-brokenness, but it is still way too powerful for a feat. It's nearly the Incantatrix's capstone to do this--it should not be a 1st-level Cleric feat.

Ummm... how? If you limit it so that you have to be able to cast the metamagiced spell normally, it's not really all that useful until later on, and even then, you won't be able to quicken the spell until you'd normally be able to anyways. What is the 1st-level cleric going to do with it, enlarge, still, silent, extend or widen a 0th level spell? He'll still have to be 9th level to quicken a 1st level spell with divine metamagic quicken.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I still find the class reprehensible.



Nothing in the 1st level knight's challenge ability to do that, he merely gains a bonus to attack, damage and Will saves against that target.

The higher level Test of Mettle ability, quoted here from the excerpt



It says nothing in the ability that the target is forced to attack, just that the target must attack the knight if he does attack anyone at all. This is after a will save. It's not going to break your game to leave it the way it is Rystil.



Agreed.



Cause you are taking something away from them which really I've never seen a problem with in game.



I think this would be over reacting. True Strike is a 1st level spell, Wraithstrike a 2nd level spell, make Wraithstrike apply only to your next melee attack and it's basically equal to True Strike if actually a bit worse (particularly at low-levels) even if you get it off as a swift action. A +20 to hit and negate concealment is far more useful than a touch attack unless you are fighting opponents with over a +20 bonus to AC that doesn't apply to touch AC's (which would be quite a while in any game I've ever played in). Do the math.




Ummm... how? If you limit it so that you have to be able to cast the metamagiced spell normally, it's not really all that useful until later on, and even then, you won't be able to quicken the spell until you'd normally be able to anyways. What is the 1st-level cleric going to do with it, enlarge, still, silent, extend or widen a 0th level spell? He'll still have to be 9th level to quicken a 1st level spell with divine metamagic quicken.

It says nothing in the ability that the target is forced to attack, just that the target must attack the knight if he does attack anyone at all. This is after a will save. It's not going to break your game to leave it the way it is Rystil.

It isn't going to break the game, but it is not-sensical. It's like making a new attack spell that is exactly the same as Fireball but has the [Compulsion] descriptor.

Cause you are taking something away from them which really I've never seen a problem with in game.

Have you played games against SR opponents where the PCs used these spells? They are extremely overpowered. Taking away something from them is the only way they should ever remain. Eliminating them altogether is fine too.

I think this would be over reacting. True Strike is a 1st level spell, Wraithstrike a 2nd level spell, make Wraithstrike apply only to your next melee attack and it's basically equal to True Strike if actually a bit worse (particularly at low-levels) even if you get it off as a swift action. A +20 to hit and negate concealment is far more useful than a touch attack unless you are fighting opponents with over a +20 bonus to AC that doesn't apply to touch AC's (which would be quite a while in any game I've ever played in). Do the math.

I did the math--eventually enemies get a +20 bonus to AC that doesn't apply to touch ACs. In fact, they start getting much much more than that. Look at the Great Wyrm Gold Dragon. It's like Fireball and Cone of Cold--Cone of Cold is not noticably better until you hit level 11. Plus, don't forget that it stacks with True Strike.

Ummm... how? If you limit it so that you have to be able to cast the metamagiced spell normally, it's not really all that useful until later on, and even then, you won't be able to quicken the spell until you'd normally be able to anyways. What is the 1st-level cleric going to do with it, enlarge, still, silent, extend or widen a 0th level spell? He'll still have to be 9th level to quicken a 1st level spell with divine metamagic quicken.

Not because they'll use it at 1st level, necessarily, but because they can use it quickly compared to the Incantatrix and friends. The real trouble starts at 9+. The Incantatrix has to pay a heavier prereq price for the PrC and then wait until much higher level. Admittedly, it isn't uber-broken if you add the limit--it won't turn your game into a bizarro parade of the Cleric stomping everything in sight, but it is still too powerful compared to the PrC ability--you may wind up with more uses than the Incantatrix, even.

 

[Patlin]

The Sorcerer already sucks compared to just the core classes--that isn't really a fair reason to disallow non-cores.

So much sorceror hate... my group loves them. Simple to play and they rarely run out of spells. I think I'm the only one who prefers to be a poverty stricken wizard!

 

[Rystil Arden]

So much sorceror hate... my group loves them. Simple to play and they rarely run out of spells. I think I'm the only one who prefers to be a poverty stricken wizard!

I will give you simple to play, I honestly will. And that's a real draw to the class and why I am glad that WotC put it out there--it is a great starter class for a new player who wants to be a caster (or heck, now after CA they can start Warlock, then go Sorc, and end with Wizard ) But what they gain is nothing compared to not having the spells they need *and* being delayed a level. They would be much better if they got 0 spells per day (plus bonus of course) at odd levels of the next spell level, or if not that, then at least *something* fun as an ability like the Favoured Soul does.