Building Eberron (Using non-Eberron books)

[Ferrix]

It isn't going to break the game, but it is not-sensical. It's like making a new attack spell that is exactly the same as Fireball but has the [Compulsion] descriptor.

I'm obviously missing something then.

Have you played games against SR opponents where the PCs used these spells? They are extremely overpowered. Taking away something from them is the only way they should ever remain. Eliminating them altogether is fine too.

Yep... *shrugs* I don't notice any huge problem with them, but add SR if people agree, just saying you won't get my vote on that one.

I did the math--eventually enemies get a +20 bonus to AC that doesn't apply to touch ACs. In fact, they start getting much much more than that. Look at the Great Wyrm Gold Dragon. It's like Fireball and Cone of Cold--Cone of Cold is not noticably better until you hit level 11. Plus, don't forget that it stacks with True Strike.

Yep, cause we're waiting to see a CR 27 dragon in our Living Eberron game go up against our horde of 1st level PC's Yes, eventually enemies do get +20 bonuses to AC that doesn't apply to touch attacks, however, it is quite a ways away, and the spell is 2nd level compared to 1st (true strike). However, like many spells it has varying degrees of usefulness depending upon situation, it provides very little bonus unless you're fighting opponents who have very high normal AC's and very low touch AC's, good job for memorizing a useful spell. A 2nd level spell that lets your next single melee attack be a touch attack isn't going to cause many problems, even if it is a swift action to cast the spell, go ahead, let the wizard 3 waste his 1 or 2 2nd level spells on wraithstrike so he can hit you for a whopping 1d6 quarterstaff damage with a touch attack, I'll take the 4d6 scorching ray thank you.

Not because they'll use it at 1st level, necessarily, but because they can use it quickly compared to the Incantatrix and friends. The real trouble starts at 9+. The Incantatrix has to pay a heavier prereq price for the PrC and then wait until much higher level. Admittedly, it isn't uber-broken if you add the limit--it won't turn your game into a bizarro parade of the Cleric stomping everything in sight, but it is still too powerful compared to the PrC ability--you may wind up with more uses than the Incantatrix, even.

I think we'll just leave this one to disagreement.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Yep, cause we're waiting to see a CR 27 dragon in our Living Eberron game go up against our horde of 1st level PC's Yes, eventually enemies do get +20 bonuses to AC that doesn't apply to touch attacks, however, it is quite a ways away, and the spell is 2nd level compared to 1st (true strike). However, like many spells it has varying degrees of usefulness depending upon situation, it provides very little bonus unless you're fighting opponents who have very high normal AC's and very low touch AC's, good job for memorizing a useful spell. A 2nd level spell that lets your next single melee attack be a touch attack isn't going to cause many problems, even if it is a swift action to cast the spell, go ahead, let the wizard 3 waste his 1 or 2 2nd level spells on wraithstrike so he can hit you for a whopping 1d6 quarterstaff damage with a touch attack, I'll take the 4d6 scorching ray thank you.

The Wizard 3 with a quarterstaff is not the problem. The Fighter1/Wizard5/Knight Phantom or Eldritch Knight with Power Attack and a Greatsword is scarier. A touch attack is a powerful ability--As far as I'm concerned, Deep Impact the Psionic Feat has the opportunity cost dead-on here for getting a single free touch attack.

As for the Great Wyrm--don't worry: he was already dead if you allowed those Orbs of Force without SR

 

[Ferrix]

The Wizard 3 with a quarterstaff is not the problem. The Fighter1/Wizard5/Knight Phantom or Eldritch Knight with Power Attack and a Greatsword is scarier. A touch attack is a powerful ability--As far as I'm concerned, Deep Impact the Psionic Feat has the opportunity cost dead-on here for getting a single free touch attack.

As for the Great Wyrm--don't worry: he was already dead if you allowed those Orbs of Force without SR

Scarier but really not too scary for a character who is that level, that scorching ray is gonna be doing 8d6+ dmg by then, the 2d6+str+magic+power attack is about comparable. Deep Impact you can do over and over again so long as you refocus, you're never running out of spells so the comparison isn't entirely accurate.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Scarier but really not too scary for a character who is that level, that scorching ray is gonna be doing 8d6+ dmg by then, the 2d6+str+magic+power attack is about comparable. Deep Impact you can do over and over again so long as you refocus, you're never running out of spells so the comparison isn't entirely accurate.

It takes a full-round action (barring a feat) to refocus and you might fail. Plus you have already spent two feats to get Deep Impact, which is a bigger investment than Wraithstrike was to learn.

As for the Scorching Ray, it comes in a pair and each part of that pair is subject to energy resist, whereas the Wraithstrike combo is only subject to DR at most once (0 times if you have the right stuff to penetrate). Plus, Scorching Ray eventually caps out whereas Wraithstrike keeps getting stronger. And don't forget that you can add more than just the Power Attack--Fight Defensively too and add AC. Combat Expertise if you have it. Use it with the PHII ability to strike only once as a full attack and do double damage (if we allow the last, of course). Etc.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I'm an idiot--I forgot an obvious way to use the "one hit Wraithstrike" with a Knight Phantom: Full Power Attack Spirited Charge

 

[Ferrix]

It takes a full-round action (barring a feat) to refocus and you might fail. Plus you have already spent two feats to get Deep Impact, which is a bigger investment than Wraithstrike was to learn.

As for the Scorching Ray, it comes in a pair and each part of that pair is subject to energy resist, whereas the Wraithstrike combo is only subject to DR at most once (0 times if you have the right stuff to penetrate). Plus, Scorching Ray eventually caps out whereas Wraithstrike keeps getting stronger. And don't forget that you can add more than just the Power Attack--Fight Defensively too and add AC. Combat Expertise if you have it. Use it with the PHII ability to strike only once as a full attack and do double damage (if we allow the last, of course). Etc.

*shrugs* The only change to Wraithstrike that I suggest is that it be changed to affect only your single next melee attack or until a round has passed. The only big problem I ever saw with it before was the full round of touch attacks with a lot of attacks. Horrors that a 2nd level spell stays useful.

 

[Rystil Arden]

*shrugs* The only change to Wraithstrike that I suggest is that it be changed to affect only your single next melee attack or until a round has passed. The only big problem I ever saw with it before was the full round of touch attacks with a lot of attacks. Horrors that a 2nd level spell stays useful.

The second level spell is not just useful--it is devastating. To the point that high level characters who have it are going to make the ones without it, particularly fighting classes without it, look like buffoons. Also note my addition of the Spirited Charge--it is probably even more likely than the others to be used with a Knight Phantom.

If I was a Knight Phantom who could Spirited Charge full Power Attack, I would pay a 6th-level spell slot each round to make the charge a touch attack. Easily. I would pay a 7th if I had it to do hundreds of (effectively against the opponents for which you use this) guaranteed damage each charge (plus I can Fight Defesively and such too). So since I would pay a 6th to get it for no action, then as a 2nd-level spell I could Quicken it as a 6th.

 

[Ferrix]

The second level spell is not just useful--it is devastating. To the point that high level characters who have it are going to make the ones without it, particularly fighting classes without it, look like buffoons. Also note my addition of the Spirited Charge--it is probably even more likely than the others to be used with a Knight Phantom.

If I was a Knight Phantom who could Spirited Charge full Power Attack, I would pay a 6th-level spell slot each round to make the charge a touch attack. Easily. I would pay a 7th if I had it to do hundreds of (effectively against the opponents for which you use this) guaranteed damage each charge (plus I can Fight Defesively and such too). So since I would pay a 6th to get it for no action, then as a 2nd-level spell I could Quicken it as a 6th.

Disagreement, leave it at that. We're not getting anywhere.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Disagreement, leave it at that. We're not getting anywhere.

Sure--and let me just say that although we've been butting heads here for a few posts on a few broken WotC mechanics, I do tend to agree with you on some of the great flavour ideas you've had I can only say that I've playtested all of the mechanics I find problematic and watched them break the game, and unfortunately with game-breaking, seeing it not break over and over can't prove anything other than that the playtesters didn't break it (oh how I wish it could--then I'd have an argument against all those Psionics-haters ).

 

[Ferrix]

Sure--and let me just say that although we've been butting heads here for a few posts on a few broken WotC mechanics, I do tend to agree with you on some of the great flavour ideas you've had I can only say that I've playtested all of the mechanics I find problematic and watched them break the game, and unfortunately with game-breaking, seeing it not break over and over can't prove anything other than that the playtesters didn't break it (oh how I wish it could--then I'd have an argument against all those Psionics-haters ).

Agreement agreed upon Guess my game experience isn't so rough as yours, least the players I usually play with don't go out of their way to break things. I generally give people the benefit of the doubt until a situation comes up that breaks my game, then I make a decision about the breaking and figure out what to do then.