Building Eberron (Using non-Eberron books)

[stonegod]

Spikes is still overpowered compared to similar damage-dealing spells.

Its third level. So you have to be 5th. 5d6 fireball (save for half) so ~16 avg before save. Spikes is divine, so you're talking a club/staff at +2 to hit and +5 to damage. Assume we cast Shillelagh first. So that is 2d6+5/19-20. Non-critcal is thus 12 damage if it hits. Not overpowered There.

At 10th? 10d6 fireball---35 damage avg before save. Spikes is 2d6+10/19-20, 17 avg. Seems fine there.

As for the Orbs--I understand the theory too, but the theory for the Orb of Force is untenable. It's a Force! You can't conjure a Force! Also, I don't care if they made the best theory ever--if it breaks the game, it breaks the game (and it breaks the game). The thing about Melf's is that it is weak and can be resisted easily with Acid Resist because it is over time. These guys are all over the map and some have no energy resist (Orb of Force, I'm looking at you). If the caster has appreciable Ranged Touch attack rolls, you could be a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon and you're going to be killed by Orb of Force if enough people throw them at you.

Which goes to my statement RE: adding SR to force/sonic. A protection from energy will save you from the "energy" orbs (12/level vs 1d6/level).

 

[Rystil Arden]

Its third level. So you have to be 5th. 5d6 fireball (save for half) so ~16 avg before save. Spikes is divine, so you're talking a club/staff at +2 to hit and +5 to damage. Assume we cast Shillelagh first. So that is 2d6+5/19-20. Non-critcal is thus 12 damage if it hits. Not overpowered There.

At 10th? 10d6 fireball---35 damage avg before save. Spikes is 2d6+10/19-20, 17 avg. Seems fine there.

Wait, doesn't it make it 19-20/x3? I may have it confused by name with another spell, but there is some crazy spell with x3 crit.

Which goes to my statement RE: adding SR to force/sonic. A protection from energy will save you from the "energy" orbs (12/level vs 1d6/level).

I don't like even allowing the other three to have no SR--Melf's is easy to resist because it comes little by little and does low damage. This is all at once. Plus if you allow one, you allow them all with Energy Substitution

 

[stonegod]

Wait, doesn't it make it 19-20/x3? I may have it confused by name with another spell, but there is some crazy spell with x3 crit.

I think you are. Spikes makes your bludgeoning weapon spikey and blugdeoning and doubles the crit range. The spell that was seriously nerfed was briar web (entangle + you DIE); it was tweaked to only slow you down and do 1 pt per 5'. Could be combined with entagle to seriously slow you, but won't kill you outright.

I don't like even allowing the other three to have no SR--Melf's is easy to resist because it comes little by little and does low damage. This is all at once. Plus if you allow one, you allow them all with Energy Substitution

Energy Subs. only lets you do acid/fire/cold/electricity, so that would prevent going from fire to sonic/force. The all at once can be defeated by a protection from energy (3rd level, vs 4th for orb of *.) Lesser orb scales 1d8/2 caster levels, max 5.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I think you are. Spikes makes your bludgeoning weapon spikey and blugdeoning and doubles the crit range. The spell that was seriously nerfed was briar web (entangle + you DIE); it was tweaked to only slow you down and do 1 pt per 5'. Could be combined with entagle to seriously slow you, but won't kill you outright.

Ah, thank you! This is just an example of why accepting all these books wholesale is problematic--CD was so poorly-balanced that I just didn't buy it. I've read it through, but I forget things or mislabel them over time.

The all at once can be defeated by a protection from energy (3rd level, vs 4th for orb of *.) Lesser orb scales 1d8/2 caster levels, max 5.

No, not all at once--just the one you pick. And then the opponent obliges you with the other ones.

 

[stonegod]

No, not all at once--just the one you pick. And then the opponent obliges you with the other ones.

True, if your opponents is a sorc with the others (or energy subs) or a warmage. Wizards won't (or probably wouldn't) have all of the different forms memorized.

 

[Rystil Arden]

True, if your opponents is a sorc with the others (or energy subs) or a warmage. Wizards won't (or probably wouldn't) have all of the different forms memorized.

That's really enough, though, isn't it? Throw an army of 1,000 1st-level Fighters against a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon, and he will annihilate them. Throw 1,000 1st-level Wizards (without the no-SR orbs) and he will annihilate them too. Pick any class really. Throw a few hundred Warmages with the 1st-level orb spells? The Dragon's toast. Same goes for maybe 10 8th-level Artificers with wands of those spells.

 

[Bront]

I agree on the orb spells. I don't like them and find them abusive.

 

[stonegod]

That's really enough, though, isn't it? Throw an army of 1,000 1st-level Fighters against a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon, and he will annihilate them. Throw 1,000 1st-level Wizards (without the no-SR orbs) and he will annihilate them too. Pick any class really. Throw a few hundred Warmages with the 1st-level orb spells? The Dragon's toast. Same goes for maybe 10 8th-level Artificers with wands of those spells.

Unless all those warmages can fit within 30 feet, they are not all going to be able to target the dragon. But, the balance of the warmage is a different issue than the balance of the orbs (though you do tend to see both in use at the same time... hmm ) 10 artificers with maximized scrolls of lesser orb @ 11th level would do 40 points each for 400 points w/o a save or SR; protection on energy would only protect from 120 while spell immunity would fix that entirely. Those same artificers with normal orb scrolls would do 600 assuming they all hit. If they want to switch the energy, they could do so, but not maximize it as well. But, by round 2, the 10 artificers are probably almost dead anyway vs that dragon.

I'm not trying to be contrary, and if SR was added, I wouldn't complain. I just like a thorough examination.

 

[stonegod]

I agree on the orb spells. I don't like them and find them abusive.

Like I said, not a problem. I'm not attached to them.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Unless all those warmages can fit within 30 feet, they are not all going to be able to target the dragon. But, the balance of the warmage is a different issue than the balance of the orbs (though you do tend to see both in use at the same time... hmm ) 10 artificers with maximized scrolls of lesser orb @ 11th level would do 40 points each for 400 points w/o a save or SR; protection on energy would only protect from 120 while spell immunity would fix that entirely. Those same artificers with normal orb scrolls would do 600 assuming they all hit. If they want to switch the energy, they could do so, but not maximize it as well. But, by round 2, the 10 artificers are probably almost dead anyway vs that dragon.

I'm not trying to be contrary, and if SR was added, I wouldn't complain. I just like a thorough examination.

The Artificers with wands would be zapping out Twinned Orbs. Of the dragon could even cast Spell Immunity or Greater Spell Immunity, it isn't effective to argue that a spell is not overpowered because it could be stopped by such a specific defense--he could also carry a Ring of Counterspelling vs the Orb, but the fact that the enemy has to have a specific counter for that spell to live indicates that it is way out of whack.

If you up the Artificers to level 9, they can even take Wand Mastery to add extra damage to insult.