Calculating XP drives me crazy

[RangerWickett]

Taking a step back for a moment. . .
I've got a head ache, so I had to skip the middle 30 posts or so, but I want to weigh in, since I'd never really pinned down my own leveling philosophy until recently.

Previously, I'd just level the group whenever I felt they had faced about 13 challenges, or when the plot had hit a nice "We came, we saw, we kicked it's ASS" point. It's always good to tell the players, "Okay, you beat the big bad of this story arc. You level."


Let's take a step back and consider what we're trying to accomplish with leveling, shall we? Is the point of gaining levels to:

a) make the game more dynamic, so that characters can be changing and the types of challenges can evolve, and so that the players feel like they've 'won' something by playing; or
b) reflect how exposure to dangerous circumstances when combined with the proper training causes people to become better at surviving; or
c) increase the level of drama by giving the characters more impressive challenges as the story progresses; or
d) something else?

Basically this comes down to a really rough riff on the old Gamist-Simulationist-Narrativist ideology. Are you trying to make the game fun, trying to create a believable world, or trying to make the story interesting? Obviously all those aspects are involved, but you need to decide which you value most, and craft your leveling system accordingly.

I've written up some ideas along those lines, and I'll present them in my next post.


The other element of this ruleset equation is the Experience Point issue. In 3e, XP represents training, plus some sort of mystical battery power that you can funnel into magic items to turn them on and spells to cast them. While it would be very daunting to rewrite swaths of the rules in order to alter this paradigm (and indeed, you might have tied that paradigm into the fabric of your game world's magic system), you should at least consider it.

You want some way to make magic item creation cost, as well as making powerful spells cost. The simplest way to fix this is to replace it all with a GP cost. According to the PHB (pg. 132, right column), 1 XP is worth 5gp. Maybe all you need to do is offer up items worth X gp in order to create a magic item, or maybe casting wish causes 25,000gp worth of stuff you own to turn to ash.

Understandably, the old 'age 5 years' balancing factor for wish in 2e is undesirable. What sort of other balances are there? Rewrite the spells so they don't need to be balanced? Ability burn? Hit point damage? A lot of times when I'm looking for ways to balance D&D rules material, I look to how powerful spells are balanced in Magic: the Gathering, because it has an excellent resource management ruleset.

Of course, all of these options might be unsavory because they represent too big of a departure. But I'm interested to hear what you think about them. I'll post more in a minute.

 

[RangerWickett]

The second-to-final issue we need to address here is the price of death. We don't like our characters dying, but there should be some reason to fear death.

I don't have a big 'philosophy of gaming' post for this one. I just have some ideas.

1. Create a variety of 'resurrection templates,' so whenever you're brought back, you come back marked in some way. You lose a level, but gain a level worth of abilities, so while you're still on par in power sort of you, you've lost some of yourself in exchange for the favor a god granted by bringing you back from the dead. Perhaps the resurrection comes with a condition that, if you complete some sort of quest, you can exchange the template for an actual level. In a way, part of your soul is on loan to a god.

2. The Mrs. Horn route - To come back from the dead, at least 3 people must vouch for you (one reason why adventurers tend to come in groups of four or more). The power providing the resurrection calls upon a favor from each of those who co-signed on your resurrection, and you have a negative level until those favors are paid. A bit less pleasant perhaps, because you have less control over your own fate.

3. The simple option. You come back with a negative level that can't be removed until you either a) gain another level, or b) make an offering of 5gp per XP your level was worth. You went from 20th to 19th? Cough up 195,000 gp, and you'll get your level back. This, however, starts mucking with the D&D wealth per level guidelines, but I think we're mucking with enough already.



What would I do? Play Mutants & Masterminds. Okay, maybe not, but I would consider changing some of these basic assumptions, because while they might work for casual gaming, when you've been playing a campaign for umpteen years, they're not as smooth as you'd like.

My next campaign, I've got some weird ideas I'm tossing around as possibilities. I intend not to use XP at all. Levels might be things that actually are understood as real things -- you gather enough energy from various fonts around the world, and you can gain a level, but these energy sources are well defended. Gaining spell knowledge will require finding texts or doing research, and you can always try to cast spells above your power level if you're willing to accept the risk. Death might be handled sorta like how World of Warcraft does it, where you just need to run your ghost over to where your body fell.

Or maybe not. I could just run it like the real world, where coming back from the dead is a miracle, and real miracles can never be relied on like class abilities.


Now, one last issue I want to point out. Level draining. I personally think level draining is one of the worst mechanics that D&D has, from a gameplay perspective. It's not fun, and it comes across as feeling mean. When you die, that's one thing, but having a level be drained by something you then kill? That's a pain in the tuckus.

You could just write-out death. PCs don't die randomly. Ever. Damage never kills you, nor do spells. You can only be killed if you're separated from the party. Raising the dead is impossible, or is a quest in itself with sacrifices far huger than XP or levels or gold.



Some Ideas I've Had Regarding Leveling
I wrote these rules for a system I was helping a person design on commission. I've edited them a bit to work for D&D.

[sblock]After a session, adventure, or scene, you may gain experience points (XP). Whenever you reach a multiple of 20 XP, you gain a level.

There are three methods for characters to gain experience, and each is suitable for a different type of game. Additionally, the rate characters gain experience should be decided upon by the group – some may want to gain powers quickly and dramatically, while others may prefer to develop slowly, so their characters can believably keep the same personality. Going from peasant boy to dragon-wrestling demi-god in the span of a year may strain suspension of disbelief, as well as drastically change a character’s outlook on life.

Challenge-Based XP
In the Challenge-Based XP system, whenever a character defeats a challenge, he gains a number of experience points based on how difficult the challenge was, relative to his own level. This system works best for games where the group wants to focus on rules, since it encourages characters to use their abilities to defeat challenges and thus improve their abilities.

(I'm skipping the rest because it's basically a rehash of the core D&D XP system, only with the numbers changed because, well, I can't legally use the D&D XP system).


Narrative XP
In the narrative XP system, characters gain XP as the story of the game progresses. The game master may set specific XP rewards for various goals, or might simply award XP whenever he feels the group has moved the story forward sufficiently. This system works best for games where the group wants to create a coherent story, since it encourages the heightening of tension and eventual climax.

Usually for each adventure the game master will design a number of scenes that lead to a climax, usually with one or two easy scenes, three to five moderately challenging scenes, and one or two difficult scenes, with the possibility of an impossibly tough scene. Each player who contributes to succeeding an easy scene gains 1 XP. Challenging scenes are worth 2 XP. Difficult scenes are worth 3 or 4 XP. Impossible scenes should be worth up to 10 XP, but only if the players do indeed triumph in the face of impossible odds; if the game master cuts them a break, the scene was just difficult.

For groups with characters of uneven levels, what is a challenging scene for one character might be easy for another. Rewards should be appropriate relative to the challenge each character overcame.

Alternately, the game master can determine major campaign goals, events that, once the PCs resolve them, will result in the PCs gaining a level. This can work if the PCs are all the same level, but runs the risk of the players feeling you're forcing them to play a particular plot, instead of them having a say in the events of the game.


Key XP
Each character has one or more Keys, which represent aspects of his nature that motivate and interest him. In every key scene of a game, characters have a chance to earn XP by acting in accordance with their Keys. The types of keys are varied, and players have the flexibility to choose what will cause their characters to gain experience.

At its basest, the Key system of XP is meant to encourage dramatic and motivated stories. The players tell the game master what they want by what keys they choose, and the game master can more easily tailor his plans so that the PCs are motivated to get involved. For example, if a player chooses the Key of Vengeance and the Key of Perfection, then the game master will know to direct the game to include ways for the player to train and prepare to take his revenge.

Each player chooses up to three of the following keys at character creation. The player and the game master may work together to create additional keys. As a character’s personality changes, he can alter his keys, if such a change fits the character. Indeed, for keys like the Key of the Quest, it may be necessary to choose a new key once the quest is completed. However, a character can never have more than three keys.

To determine how much experience characters gain, the game master should determine after each session or adventure what the key scenes were. Key scenes do not have to tie into any particular overarching plot or storyline that was devised before the game starts. Indeed, key scenes are those which offered the players an opportunity to direct the course of the story by making decisions. They can be serious or humorous, action-packed or sublimely emotional. Foremost, a key scene is one in which risk or danger lies ahead of a character, and the character’s decisions determine how he will confront that risk.

As a general guideline, an adventure session should be divided into 5 to 10 key scenes. Some sessions might have fewer, especially if the adventure is designed in traditional ‘dungeon crawl’ format, which focuses more on results than decisions mitigated by character personalities. On the other hand, if your initial count results in more than 10 scenes, you are probably splitting single situations into too many scenes.

For each scene in which a character’s actions and decisions are motivated by one of his keys, the character earns 1 XP. The key need not be the only thing motivating him, but it should sweeten the deal. If the key motivates the character to take a course of action when another choice would clearly be easier, safer, or smarter, the character may earn 2 XP, at the game master’s discretion.

If during a scene a character makes choices in opposition to his keys, he loses 1 XP. He does not lose XP if his companions convince or force him to take a different course of action, nor if he chooses one of his keys over another of his keys. He only loses XP if his decisions are opposed to his keys, and are made of his own free will.

If a character makes a concerted effort to abandon a key and to turn his back on his previous ways, perhaps to reject temptation or spurn a moral code that has failed him, he can give up that key, gaining 10 XP, plus any XP he lost in the same session due to acting in opposition of his key. He can then choose a new key to replace the lost one. A character can only gain this XP if the change in his actions is dramatic and appropriate. Arbitrary changes in a character’s personality should not be rewarded, and usually a character will need to lose a few XP before making a switch permanently. As the key system is intended to encourage dramatic and motivated roleplaying, a change that a character struggles with and that cause interesting scenes should be rewarded.

(... This is followed by a listing of 14 sample keys)
[/sblock]


Me, though? I think I'll stick with the 'You beat the main bad guy? Okay, you level!' option.

 

[Conaill]

Sounds good so far, but I would prefer if it were a little more streamlined still.

How about alternative "death penalties"? Maybe a permanent -1 Con when you die (or a -2 of any other stat of choice)?

 

[Piratecat]

I'm hesitant to use constitution drain as a permanent death penalty. It seems that if I'm trying to get close to a lost level with less paperwork, the "permanent" negative level mitigated by a DM-controlled quest might be the way to go.

 

[WizarDru]

I'm hesitant to use constitution drain as a permanent death penalty. It seems that if I'm trying to get close to a lost level with less paperwork, the "permanent" negative level mitigated by a DM-controlled quest might be the way to go.

A wise choice, I think. Obviously, you want to tread lightly when it comes to anything regarding 'death penalties'....both from a paperwork standpoint and a story framework. I disagree with RW about negative levels...I think they're mechanically very easy to remember (1 negative level is essentially a -1 to every d20 roll you make) and conceptually understandable. I also think he underestimates one of the most significant values of levels....the carrot. As Monte Cook himself points out, levelling is generally considered a reward...cool new powers or advanced abilities. It's a powerful motivator for a PC.

At high levels, magic is powerful and can be arbitrary. Melee characters can reduce a physically frailer PC to chop-suey in a single round; powerful magic can kill with a single saving-throw. One of the mantras of our games is..."Everyone can roll a '1'." How did my players beat a winterwight? He rolled a '1' versus disintegrate. He'd weathered 18 spells by that point without a sweat...but 5% is 5%. PCs are no less vulnearble. One Greater Dispel, and all your protection magic is stripped. Good Planning can avoid most of this...but death becomes a much more likely consequence of the adventuring life (which is why Raise Dead, Res, True Res, Reincarnate, Wish and other such spells arrive on the scene).

IMHO, the best way to handle such stuff is the DM quest. That's how I handled my players desire for Epic weapons when the time came. Buying them seemed ludicrous, but crafting them wasn't an option for most players, either.

I view levelling as something of a hybrid between real-world experience, training, gained insights and a certain spark that is fired by adversity. My general policy has usually been, partial benefits immediately upon obtaining sufficient XP, and class benefits after a night's rest. So hit points and BAB increase on the spot, but new spells, feats and skill bonuses require a little quiet time. I have violated this rule on occasion, as the story required.

I think the thing to keep in mind is determining what the benefits are you're trying to reap from banishing xp, and what will make life simpler for everyone.

Here's another thought: if the ultimate problem is that "Math is Hard" (as my players often hear my cry around the table), perhaps the real issue is that you simply remove the xp award model, and award xp based on a tier system. What I mean is this, rather than figure out xp awards for creatures, modify it for difficulty, compensate with story award, then tailor it up or down depending, just figure out the difficulty for the night, and then award a flat xp bonus based on THAT, using some level related formula.

For example:

Tier 1 - Low Activity Session (ex: not much RPing, not much combat, players go shopping): xp =300
Tier 2 - Med. Activity Session (ex: some excellent rping, no combat or vice-versa, players deal with politics, or fight a giant zombie worm) xp=600
Tier 3 - Full-Contact Spira! (ex: head-to-head with the undead dragon followed by guiding a dwarf to make the ultimate sacrifice for his people and his god) xp=1000

I'm making up the strata and I've given you no way to calculate xp, relatively, but I'm just suggesting the idea of a system. I'm only pointing this out as a way of thinking: rather than re-engineer the entire system to accomodate a new levelling idea, maybe the best option is to streamline the xp calculation instead.

 

[Morte]

Consequences I foresee:
- Everyone levels at once.

Is your goal to have everybody level at once, or to have everybody at the same level?

If the former, losing a level when raised need not be an issue. The raised PC is still in sync with the rest of the party, but one level behind where they were before.

 

[Conaill]

I'm hesitant to use constitution drain as a permanent death penalty. It seems that if I'm trying to get close to a lost level with less paperwork, the "permanent" negative level mitigated by a DM-controlled quest might be the way to go.

Eh, a negative level is far more severe punishment than a -1 Con. And who's to say you can't regain that Con loss through a quest too?

Personally, I'd keep it permanent, occasional exceptions notwithstanding. (Especially after seeing how GRR Martin dealt with Raise Dead in A Storm of Swords ) Then again, I also don't plan to have any campaigns where PC's die more than once or twice during their careers.

 

[der_kluge]

I've just skimmed this thread, but one thing to keep in mind, with Action Points, level draining becomes much much more rare.

Because if there is any roll the players are going to spend an action point re-rolling, it's on the save to resist the level drain.

IMC, I allow them to spend as many action points as they want on a single roll if they want to.

 

[Piratecat]

One thing to keep in mind, with Action Points, level draining becomes much much more rare.

That's actually okay with me. I don't think anyone has been successfully level drained (permanently) in my game yet. Level draining isn't fun; the threat of level draining is fun.

Morte, my secondary goal is to have everyone level at once. They don't have to all be the same level. The problem is that if someone lost a level, without the CR system that awards more xp to lower level members of the group, they'll never catch up.

I'll note, by the way, that because I haven't been using the actual experience point rules I already have this problem. I haven't let the lower level PCs catch up to the higher level PCs as they would have normally. I plan to rectify that.

 

[beepeearr]

I'll second the call to just use the Star Wars method of giving out the XP, If I remember correctly, it is incredibly simple, it based off of level and the length of your sessions (not that I use it though, but I've seen it used in the past, the longer your sessions the quicker you advance). This way you do little math and the players still get an XP pool, and just make them do the math and show there work when using spells or making magic items. I personally wouldn't use the AP as XP replacement method, but that is just me.