Called shots

[Kahuna Burger]

I actually agree with you on the archer build.... there should be a feat called Aimed Shot that allows you to take a penalty to hit for a bonus to damage. The Peerless Archer (Silver Marches) has this abilty, and it's called Power shot. I don't think it's overpowered as a feat, with enough prerequisites before. (PBS, Precise Shot would seem enough to me)

For the finesse build, I think there actually is a mechanic for this: Sneak attack. You just have to find ways to increse the chance to catch an opponent flat footed (I like Imp Feint). Another method is to go duelist and get precise strike. So there actually are ways to obtain extra damage for finesse fighters.

I would prefer a feat [chain] for the finesse build as well, rather than having to go with a single specific class. You can build a power fighter out of any class with a fighter BAB and to a lesser extend the monk, it bugs me that an effective finesse fighter pretty much has to take rogue levels.

Anyway, if you build off the mechanical models already in play with power attack, sneak attack and the assassin's death attack, I think a called shot mechanic is perfectly reasonable. With the increase in effectiveness of the single feat double handed power fighter build, I personally think such finesse/ranged options are neccassary, but I'm biased by my prefered character fighting style.

 

[darthkilmor]

We figured out a called shot system that seemed to make a fair bit of sense.

called shot to torso = AC * 1.25
called shot to legs or arms = AC * 1.5
called shot to head/neck = AC * 1.75
called shot to eye = AC * 2

So to pop say an arrow in the BBEG with the 35 AC in the eye would be a 70, to shot a goblin with AC 12 in the eye would only be AC 24.

We didnt quite have figured out well what Happens when you hit there, max dmg certainly seems reasonable for head/neck shots.
<off the cuff what about...>
maybe an eye shot is fort save DC dmg dealt or fall unconsious?
head/neck does max dmg.
arm hit could be reflex vs dmg dealt or drop whats in that arm.
leg could be same and fall prone.
</end off the cuff>

<wonders if this thread will get kicked over to house rules> :O

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Or you have to be a cheerleader wannabe from a small California town, whose school lies just on top of a Hellmouth.

The problem with allowing mid-combat heart-stakings for vampires is, if you can stake a vampire, why can't you stake a human? Wouldn't the human be just as dead as the vampire?

Called shots as a way to bypass the hit point mechanic is probably a bad idea, no matter how you work it.

 

[Christian]

So to pop say an arrow in the BBEG with the 35 AC in the eye would be a 70, to shot a goblin with AC 12 in the eye would only be AC 24.

You might want to read Infiniti2000's posts above again ... If you implement this, you need to replace the 'auto-hit on a 20' rule, maybe with the open-ended roll option from ELH. That's the biggest, but not the only, mechanic that would need to be re-designed for your rule to work in the overall system ...

 

[iwatt]

I would prefer a feat [chain] for the finesse build as well, rather than having to go with a single specific class. You can build a power fighter out of any class with a fighter BAB and to a lesser extend the monk, it bugs me that an effective finesse fighter pretty much has to take rogue levels.

Anyway, if you build off the mechanical models already in play with power attack, sneak attack and the assassin's death attack, I think a called shot mechanic is perfectly reasonable. With the increase in effectiveness of the single feat double handed power fighter build, I personally think such finesse/ranged options are neccassary, but I'm biased by my prefered character fighting style.

I know what you mean about having to dip into rogue. I hate when I have to do anything. Except that I love taking levels in the rogue class (sneak attack, skills, good reflex, etc...). It just makes so much sense for a finesse fighter to take rogue levels (just for tumble and balance if for no other reason) . Rogues are the low armored high damage class.

An alternative is to allow sneak attack as a feat? maybe tied to Dex (like TWF) or base reflex? Needs work though, since it seems like stealing the rogues thunder.

I agree with you that with the RAW, pure fighter finesse builds are not effective. Within the RAW, the finesse fighter IS a Fighter/Rogue (which really isn't that bad ). Fighter for the feats hps and BAB, Rogue for the skills and finesse combat (sneak attack). And you don't even have to take Search/Disable device/ and other Thievery skills. Take Bluff, balance, Climb, Jump, Listen, Spot, Sense Motive. Fill in the rest with whatever skills (even cross class ) you want.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Note, that I believe a called shot system would be most viable in a modern style d20 system without levels and hit points.

d20 Modern doesn't have levels and hit points? I've never looked at d20 Modern, but I didn't know that.

For all the opponents of called shots, why is it ok for a two handed high str fighter to trade accuracy for massive amounts of damage, but unacceptable for the rapier weilder or archer to do the exact same thing? This I do not get.

First, rapier wielders can use power attack just fine. Rapiers are not light weapons. Second, your statement is a nonsequitur. Don't try to associate power attack with called shots unless you are calling power attack (and crit threats) as your "called shot" system. That's fine, and then a feat like Power Shot would be okay.

Note that when I (at least) talk about called shots systems, I'm referring to something other than power attack and crit threats, where you can bypass armor, cause instant death or other debilitating injuries, etc.

 

[iwatt]

Called shots as a way to bypass the hit point mechanic is probably a bad idea, no matter how you work it.

Agreed. As long as hitpoints represent something more than just physical toughness (luck, close calls, etc..) bypassing hitpoints through called shots is, as you say, a bad idea. That's why I believe that if you wnat to incorporate called shots in your game you shouls follow the tack of PA. Take a tougher shot for the posibilty of doing more damage. Describe the effect as desired (powerful swing with your axe, deft strike with your dagger, aimed shot with your bow). I'd just allow the same mechanic (- to hit trade for + to damage). Seems good enough for me when using an abstract hitpoint sytem liek DnD uses.

 

[Infiniti2000]

We figured out a called shot system that seemed to make a fair bit of sense.

No, it doesn't make a lick of sense. Not only that, but you'll never have it make sense within the d20 system. The mere title of 'called shot' doesn't even make sense. For it to make sense means that every other attack in the game is not a called shot, meaning that they are not aimed. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Aside from that, you'd want a 'called shot' system that is balanced and playable across all levels. This cannot be done. You can create a system that is playable and call it a called shot system, but it won't be similar to what you propose as a general rules system available to all levels of play. For example, create a series of called shot feats, perhaps in a chain, that characters must have to take advantage of called shots. This is not really a called shot system available to anyone though and predominantly favors the fighter, who has the feats to spend.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

I know what you mean about having to dip into rogue. I hate when I have to do anything. Except that I love taking levels in the rogue class (sneak attack, skills, good reflex, etc...). It just makes so much sense for a finesse fighter to take rogue levels (just for tumble and balance if for no other reason) . Rogues are the low armored high damage class.

thats what bugs me about them. there are 3 1/2 'tank' classes, 2 1/2 'arcane spell' classes, 2 'divine spell' classes, etc... why should rogues be the low armored high damage class? Or the trap finding/disabling class?

An alternative is to allow sneak attack as a feat? maybe tied to Dex (like TWF) or base reflex? Needs work though, since it seems like stealing the rogues thunder.

IMHO, the rogues thunder is well in need of stealing.

"Hi, may name is Kahuna Burger and I hate rogues."

all: "Hi Kahuna Burger...."

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Agreed. As long as hitpoints represent something more than just physical toughness (luck, close calls, etc..) bypassing hitpoints through called shots is, as you say, a bad idea. That's why I believe that if you wnat to incorporate called shots in your game you shouls follow the tack of PA. Take a tougher shot for the posibilty of doing more damage. Describe the effect as desired (powerful swing with your axe, deft strike with your dagger, aimed shot with your bow). I'd just allow the same mechanic (- to hit trade for + to damage). Seems good enough for me when using an abstract hitpoint sytem liek DnD uses.

I think you can further extrapolate such a system using the mechanics introduced in crippling strike, death attack, and even stunning fist. I agree that a simple minus to hit for super effects could be unballancing, but making it a full round or studied action (ala death attack) limited attempts (stunning fist) or doing special effects instead of rather than in addition to damage (crippling strike) are all models already in use that imo can be sucessfully adapted to an effective called shot system.