Calling All Experts: Shield Bash and Dual Shields?

[RJSmalls]

Fellas,

I'm at work now without my books, but received a request from one of my players regarding a potential new character. I was wondering if any of you have played with or DM'd a character like the one below. If you have any comments or know of any applicable rules, I'd appreciate any and all help. I'm fairly new to 3E (at least when it comes to rules somewhat outside the main books), so please give me tips if you've seen things that don't work or are 'broken' and what-not. Again, thanks for your help!

My friend's email below:

I want to make a guy who uses the shield bash as his primary mode of attack. However, the description in the equipment section of the PHB describes shield bash as such:

"You can bash an opponent with a shield, using it as an off-hand weapon."

My question, of course, is can it be used as your primary
weapon? Additionally, can you carry another shield in your off-hand which can be used like a traditional shield? Finally, can you carry a large shield in one hand, and a small shield in the other and follow the two-weapon fighting progression? I agree it would look awkward. He would carry traditional weapons on his person, but he'd rarely use them.

Another question: If the answers to any of the above questions are 'yes', would a +2 shield be considered a +2 enchanted weapon to damage and/or to defeat DR. I'm guessing not. If I attach spikes to the shield and have the spikes enchanted, would that be okay (spiked shield by PHB does 1d6 versus 1d4 for regular large, wooden shield)?

This idea came to me from some of the feats in DotF as well as S&F. Check them out, and you'll see where I'm going with this.

I think a shield bash is only logical using your main hand. Especially since if I took the feat ambidexterity, I'd have no 'off-hand' with which to do a shield bash.

 

[drnuncheon]

You can use a shield in your main hand without a problem - it's only logical.

However:

• You don't get any extra AC bonus (even with the Shield Expert feat) from it as the bonuses from two shields do not stack
• If you want a shield to get bonuses for attack and damage, you need to enhance it as a weapon, not a shield
• You can put spikes on the shield and enhance them separately.

Green Ronin seems to have a particular fascination with dual-shield characters, including a PrC for them in Hammer & Helm and a fighting style in Plot & Poison. I'm personally not sure why, because I think they're pretty goofy, but to each his own I guess.

J

 

[RJSmalls]

Thanks

Cool.

A quickie: Can a shield bash deliver damage from both the bash and any spikes including on the shield?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Personally, I wouldn't play such a character. I'd feel rediculous (and here's someone who has played a rokugani Scorpion ninja that traveled with Forgotten Realms characters in Ravenloft - wearing a kimono and one of several masks all the time).

 

[RJSmalls]

FWIW, I probably wouldn't play such a character, either. But if this guy wants to play a dual shield PC, I don't have a problem with that - so long as it's by the rules, so to speak.

Still not sure if such an archetype "fits" within the campaign world. I gotta figure that one out on my own, I s'pose.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

He fits perfectly well. He's the laughing stock of his party, of the townsfolk, and of every single enemy they encounter. All campaigns need such a thing.

 

[RJSmalls]

The laughingstock is the Savage Species octupus-man who wields no less than eight tower shields. By that measuring stick, this PC would be boring.

 

[melkoriii]

By the rules you can not make a primary attack with a shield bash.

The you can only make a shield bash as an off-hand weapon.
Also even if you do have ambidextrous feat, you still have a off-hand for purposes of damage and wielding weapons.

I also would not allow this combo because of the massive abuse of the DotF shield feat that go with the combo.

Just a heads up, make sure you read and understand the way the feats would over power the shields.

 

[Rel]

I have played such a character. If I recall correctly, KaeYoss chimed in to tell me that my character could not be taken seriously and that I'd be the laughing stock of the campaign world, etc. It was ok though because we spent the lions share of the campaign adventuring in an isolated swamp far away from most of the world's inhabitants. So the only people laughing at me were the other party members and our enemies. Since I was good at killing these enemies, neither they nor the party laughed at me for too long.

drnuncheon's points above are spot on. I'll note that shield spikes change the base damage of the weapon from d4 to d6. It doesn't matter if the off hand shield is large or small since all shields are considered "Light" weapons. If he takes ambidexterity, he won't have an "off hand".

I had tremendous fun with the character thanks to his versitility. I was a multiclassed Ranger/Cleric (of Obad-Hai). I took the Improved Shield Bash and Shield Charge feats. I would try to open a fight with a charge, dealing double damage thanks to Shield Charge. Then, I could decide once I was up close if I wanted to attack with one or both shields. This gave me a degree of control over my attack bonus (I'd attack with one or both shields depending on how tough my opponent was to hit) and my AC (I would attack with one or both shields depending on how badly I needed the extra AC).

But the real fun was the free Bull Rush from Improved Shield Bash. This made for some fun combos. If the party Psychic Warrior had somebody engaged with his reach weapon, I could Shield Charge them for double damage and execute a free Bull Rush. If I pushed the bad guy out of his threatened area, the PsyWar got an AoO on him.

Also, since I had the Plant domain, I got the Entangle spell. I would frequently drop an Entangle early in the fight and then try whenever possible to Bull Rush anybody who escaped back into the area of effect.

I had lots of fun with that character. I wish the campaign hadn't had to end so soon (scheduling conflicts).

I will note that I frequently GM our group and I took a hard look at the character from the angle of "Would I allow this character in one of my games?" I can see how, when added to the Divine Shield feat from DotF, that my Shield Charge damage could start to get pretty high. But it never seemed like a game breaking combo to me. I can think of lots of other ways to twink out a character than this.

Add to that the fact that this character had lots of other facets to him. I took my religion seriously and had a well developed personality for the character. My DM never indicated that he had any problems with the character and frankly the PsyWar with Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, a reach weapon and Cleave probably outperformed me in combat by a slim margin. I also didn't expect my DM to cater to my style and put lots of magical spiked shields in the treasure we found. I was prepared to have to make or commission my own weapons.

I think it is pretty balanced and can be a lot of fun. If you think the style seriously clashes with the tone of your game then go ahead and disallow it. But it doesn't seem terribly goofy to me. I always pictured my shields being shaped sort of like those used by the Uruk-Hai in LotR-FotR, but with spikes.

 

[Darklone]

My comments:

• Yeah, he would look silly, dependant on the shields. Check out Fury in the Wastelands or some other books for shield blades.
• He's usually worse off with two shields damagewise than with a shield and a weapon. An no, AC enchantment bonuses to shields don't make your shield a magic weapon. And no, with two shields only the higher AC bonus adds to your armour.
• Shield Specialisation from KoK PG might be advised.
• Ask Rel how he played that kind of character. Edit: He posted
• Make sure the player is not a silly munchkinizer who thinks he found a new way to reach abyssmal high AC values. In that case: he's wrong.

Nice idea would perhaps be for such a character to use two bladed or spiked bucklers (if allowed) and a longspear or other reach weapon. As soon someone gets into close quarter fighting, he switches to defence with full expertise.