calling all GMs - advice on handling a selfish player

Primitive Screwhead said:
With him, and everyone else, I require that they know the rules that govern thier characters abilities. ... My suggestion for your player is to do the same...
A very good idea for a normal gaming group - but I have multiple players who are not very rules-saavy, and so being more stringent in this area would only isolate them as well.


Primitive Screwhead said:
and in the same breath, suggest you look better at cutting rules out.
...
Fast, firm judgement calls tend to cut down on the arguments.
Also, lay out the main options for the player. It may take more time in play.. but usually less than the arguments that may occur without it.
Now that is an excellent idea. You're right; I need to be more reactive to his crazy demands and be able to present him OPTIONS instead of DISCUSSIONS. Thank you for this suggestion!


Primitive Screwhead said:
Lastly, ensure to chat with the entire group about this being a communal game and how pacing is important. That lets you pull the 'DM is right' card a bit softer by stating 'for now, I will rule this way. Next break we will look this up and discuss it but right now the play must go on.'
That's a good way to bring that up... I just wrote that I thought trying to find ways to do this would be a good idea.


Primitive Screwhead said:
{edit}.. almost forgot. One of my favorite ways to deal with a player who argues rules is to offer to let them DM. :>
Complete and total disaster, guarenteed! :) (Seriously, though: either a) he'd do it, and it would be worse, or b) he'd shuf off that on "I don't know the rules well enough," and absolve himself of responsibility there.)
 

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DungeonmasterCal said:
Have the BBEG kill him and take his stuff. Works in my games.
Yeah, I ain't got nothing better than that either. I don't have much patience for that kind of behavior, but you're kinda in a position where you have to have patience one way or another. I dunno. No easy way out.
 

DungeonmasterCal said:
Have the BBEG kill him and take his stuff. Works in my games.
:) It's so hard to really get this guy's personality across through a forum thread: I tried one time letting him get in over his head - and subsequently get knocked down a notch by losing all his gold (note: it wasn't much, maybe 1200g). This was a big mistake. He went into another diatribe and swore his character would kill x and y and all this stuff, essentially making his CN character (aside: that's the ONE best thing about this player; he is PERFECT at playing a CN character) tip alllllmost all the way down to CE. Yikes. Worse. Please understand: punishing him is not going to make him learn things.
 

I would force the issues back into the game and out of the real world. If his character is upset about why something did or didn't work, explain it as the narrative DM.

Why didn't the rope grab him?!

You're not really sure You think you did everything right and something is amiss. What do you do next?

I CANNOT BELIVE THIS! I WAS ROBBED!!!

With your shouting you begin to bring the attention of the guards. "Was somebody robbed? What's going on here? What are you trying to do with that rope?"

I FALL ON MY SWORD!!!

As you reach for your weapon, the guards tense. Roll initiative please.


Keep it in the game. Force him to return to it.
 

Man. That's a heckuva situation, there. From what you've said, I think the best thing to do is roll with the punches, and give in a bit if it keeps the rest of the game going. I know one trouble player can bring a whole game down, and if everyone else is okay with accomodating him, just bend a bit when he starts going.

Alternatively, introduce a variant on Hero/Action/Whatever Points. Equal to his level or something -- not very many. If he wants to punch out the window and dive down on top of the fleeing bad guy, and says he can in one round because he knows that when he was in Exotic Locale A and spent time doing Interesting Thing B, he can so forth so on... say, "Okay, spend an action point and you can."

That way you can accomodate for his player knowledge but still have some kind of system. He may start griping if he runs out, but it could bring a balance to the game.
 

Hjorimir said:
I would force the issues back into the game and out of the real world. If his character is upset about why something did or didn't work, explain it as the narrative DM...
That's also a good suggestion, and your example was quite funny (maybe too realistic, eh?). Sadly, I've tried this too, and it doesn't really work... As I hinted just now, he tends to become extremely destructive and starts to go CE when he "tantrums" in the game - and most importantly, he's not afraid to peril his character to get his way. All that would end up happening is that it would horribly wreck the world and cause him more punishments, both of which end up not helping.
 

You have to convince him that game theory allows for a failure despite the most involved and complicated explanations of 'real life' the player comes up with. Make sure he hears that before you play and agrees that it can enhance the game experience. If he does not then do not run that time. Unfortunate, but he has to understand that you will not baby him in Real Life by letting him pout his way through a game. Sorry, but you are the one that has the backbone, since he has beaten down all his close relatives.

Another option, when he goes into his detailed explanations, based on the game theory discussion you had with him earlier, he gets a +1 or +2 circumstance bonus. But he can still fail! He has to agree that failure is a possiblity or you need to tell him he cannot play.

Buy him a book and send it to him, ask him to be ready to run an adventure the next time you get together. Since he wants to shine no better way than to have him run a game, although he might exhibit some bad GM activities. Might want to highlight the Good GM sections and send him a module to try for his first time. He might appreciate what you go through better, or at least a little.

Another option - you write up cards/one sheet with combat info/relevant skills DC, Saves etc on it. Make sure those non-rules savvy understand their page. If they want to play then need to learn something! Ask him to help you help them. Again, take advantage of his behavior pattern and how others deal with him to get all of them more rule-savvy.

The next time they are fighting a BBEG and something goes wrong, he starts to rant, have an Evil minion hear his rants IC and come to his side. Have him extol the wonderfulness of his rage and beg to have him take him on and protect him.
 
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Kid Socrates said:
...if everyone else is okay with accomodating him, just bend a bit when he starts going.
The problem here is that I just can't stomach this solution very well. Giving into his demands hurts my sense of fairness; it's one of my own flaws clashing with his.

Kid Socrates said:
Alternatively, introduce a variant on Hero/Action/Whatever Points...
That's also not a bad idea. It would be very odd to just pop that into the middle of quite a long campaign, and it sort-of bends the world a little, but it's a decent idea. It would force me as a GM to be even more adaptive than I already am with certain events, but I don't mind doing that. The one thing I would fear is an ever-increasing expectation of reward via these points: "I want to use a point to knock the BBG out cold, so I can coup-de-grace him." Introducing new game mechanics seems more problematic and potentially won't solve the issue; I really need new behaviors that I can implement to help control the game environment.
 

Having said all that, here's the real problem: I've asked his family members how they typically deal with him, and they just usually let him spout off and have his way because in the end, they've come to understand, this is just easier. Fighting him gets nowhere, and at least if you concede you keep everything moving. ...Sadly, this attitude conflicts with the very core of my entire personality. When I see him acting like an ass, I tend to have the opposite reaction - I tend to try to make him see why he's wrong or to fight against letting the (as I see it, anyway) pouting child have his way. This only leads to more conflict, conflict.

So my question to the community is this: how can I appease this situation, please almost if not everyone, and at the same time not completely violate my own principles.

Ok. This is coming from a lawyer, so take my analysis in the spirit that it’s given :D

1. Without violating your own principles? In these circumstances, you can’t. So give that up right off.
2. You are in a situation when the ordinary social mores and rules that govern games and gaming and interpersonal relationships do not work as they should. They have been artificially ousted by larger family concerns.
3. Family forces us frequently to make choices about how we treat others within it differently than how we treat others in a non-family situation. Sometimes we stick to our principles and feuds erupt. Given the long-term fallout and difficulties those sorts of rifts can create in families, we are frequently called to question the real importance of the controversy at issue and we decide to put up with a problem we otherwise would not.

Sure we can dress it up as a question of principles, but if you do - before you know it, you are Cpt. Picard in his ready room shouting “this far, no further”.

Reality is usually a lot less clear than that. Usually, the controversy in issue is not worth causing a family rift over.

And while you are not wholly in that situation – you certainly have more than one big toe in that pool. Indeed, you seem to be in up to the waist.

So really- best to back down on “the principles”. I deal with “principles” every day – and when you are trying to settle something the “vaunted principle” at issue is the first thing that needs jettisoning and fast. It just gets in the way of peace.

4. The easiest way to deal with it as you have outlined is to seize upon his falling on the sword and leaving as your *acceptance* that he no longer wants to participate in the campaign. Deal with the matter by considering it having been dealt with. He quit. Accept it. Do nothing further – simply don’t include him in your games and don’t let him know they are being held. If challenged upon it – explain that as far as you knew he had already killed himself and quit by leaving. There was nothing more to say – it had already been said and you didn’t want to hut his feelings or cause any difficulty between him and his family members by embarrassing him. A white lie, but a plausible one. If you are lucky – you’ll get away with that long enough that it will stick by default.
5. If not – you can either continue as you were or create a scenario in game where the same situation will inevitably arise. Provoke him subtly in a reasonable manner so as to cause him to quit. As long as you go about this in a manner where you aren’t overtly being the bad guy – no family rift will develop if he quits again. His family members will apologize for him when he leaves and you are in the clear.

Given his attitude, there has to be a number of traps you can come up with that will provoke such a response. “Oooops.” Be sly and outthink him and he’ll get frustrated and walk. He’s already demonstrated the capacity for that. You just need to find that button again without being obvious about it and you are in the clear.
 

Templetroll said:
You have to convince him that game theory allows for a failure despite the most involved and complicated explanations of 'real life' the palyer comes up with.
Excellent suggestion; this is actually one thing that I have been slowly working on for a little while. I'm trying to very, very slowly change his mindset about how the game works, and help him understand that instead of telling me exactly how he tied the rope, he should just roll the die.

Your other suggestions are good, but I know he won't actually run a game. This guy has a very busy life; he doesn't have time nor the inclination, really. Getting him a copy of the PHB is not a bad idea, though.
 

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