Can a DM expose a vampire character to sunlight with combat actions?

[twilsemail]

can I just say I could fill 100 posts with examples of DMs beign unfair...some of witch is I was the DM being unfair...

I could fill 100 posts with stories about people jumping off of bridges. Doesn't make it a good idea.

The game is about a group of people having fun. All of them. Ignoring the concept of "fair" because you have a certain role in that group isn't part of the whole process. It ruins the experience for a majority of the people there.

That said, I think that an NPC, with a good reason to do so, removing a cloak from a Leech PC isn't a bad idea at all. It reminds them of one of the banes of their class. Same goes for PC on NPC action.

I wasn't agains the idea of removing the cloak. It was the tyrannical statement at the end of the post that irked me.

 

[IanB]

That's right. The vampires weakness should never come into play...

This is not a "kill vampire" power. This is capitalizing on a weakness. I would expect the PCs to do the same thing to enemy vampires.

OP: Just make sure you can justify the monsters' knowledge that the PC is a vampire. And, then rip his damn cloak off.

Who said anything about 'never'? There are monsters out there who do radiant damage. What is being described in this thread takes what should really only be a mild weakness (this is 4e after all) and turns it into a crippling why-did-I-pick-this-character flaw.

 

[P1NBACK]

Who said anything about 'never'? There are monsters out there who do radiant damage. What is being described in this thread takes what should really only be a mild weakness (this is 4e after all) and turns it into a crippling why-did-I-pick-this-character flaw.

How is it crippling? It's some ongoing damage. The player can simply pick his cloak back up and put it on, find shade, etc.

It's a tactical maneuver that makes combat more interesting and allows the player to overcome tight situations and challenges. A player should NOT choose to play a vampire if they don't want sunlight to be problematic. Seriously.

 

[IanB]

How is it crippling? It's some ongoing damage. The player can simply pick his cloak back up and put it on, find shade, etc.

It's a tactical maneuver that makes combat more interesting and allows the player to overcome tight situations and challenges. A player should NOT choose to play a vampire if they don't want sunlight to be problematic. Seriously.

"More interesting" is in the eye of the beholder. When any random minion can give you unremovable ongoing 10 damage in any outdoor, daytime fight, at will, then yes I think that rises to the level of 'crippling'.

Worse, there's a strong element of DM fiat involved that in some groups would cause serious issues, and it singles out one player for extra penalties above and beyond the ones they signed up for in the actual stat block of the character.

I can see it working at some tables, but from a game balance perspective I thnk it really knocks the vampire, which is already probably a little on the weak side, potentially out of contention entirely.

 

[eamon]

How is it crippling? It's some ongoing damage. The player can simply pick his cloak back up and put it on, find shade, etc.

It's a tactical maneuver that makes combat more interesting and allows the player to overcome tight situations and challenges. A player should NOT choose to play a vampire if they don't want sunlight to be problematic. Seriously.

The problem isn't with the idea - using the vulnerability is a good idea. The problem is the execution.

Using a standard action, even with an attack roll, just doesn't make sense. That's way too easy. Why can't I grab a bow as easily? A player should NOT choose to play an archer if you don't want close quarters to be problematic.

If someone hasn't fastened their hood well, and if they aren't armed - then sure, a standard action is reasonable. Otherwise, I'd say this is on the order of disarming - that's being rather optimistic, IRL this would definitely be harder - and disarm is not something trivially possible in 4e.

So yes. You're the DM. Be creative! Don't just unbalance the game by introducing inconsistent combat actions, make something up that players and other creatures can't copy willy nilly.

 

[jonesy]

Just one thing. It's a vampire. In daylight.

Why would he not fasten the cloak/hood as well as he could? And why would he stop with the cloak? I'd get all the protection I possibly could. Helmet, goggles, whatnot.

 

[aurance]

I wouldn't do this, mainly because the vampire class is so crappy that, if you were going to do this sort of thing, you might as well just tell the player to play a goblin minion.

Just kidding. But really vampire has some low power issues.

 

[S'mon]

I wouldn't do this, mainly because the vampire class is so crappy that, if you were going to do this sort of thing, you might as well just tell the player to play a goblin minion.

This would be my solution too.

"You want to play a creature of darkness? Okay, you're a goblin."

 

[Blue]

Worse, there's a strong element of DM fiat involved that in some groups would cause serious issues, and it singles out one player for extra penalties above and beyond the ones they signed up for in the actual stat block of the character.

Actually, it IS listed in the stat block.

Class features: Blood Drinker, Blood Is Life, Child of the Night, Enduring Soul, Hidden Might, Swarm of Shadows, Vampire At-Will Attack Powers, Vampiric Reflexes.

Saying it's "DM fiat" for something like this to come up is like sayign it's "DM's fiat" to have terrain if it favors the foes. The player wants to play a vampire, the aversion to sunlight is part of it. If a smart enemy takes advantage of it, that's good in the same way a smart enemy might take advantage of terrain.

Now, if it shows up every adventure that's unfair, but a smart foe who knows the PCs is a vampire and is fighting outdoors in daylight when it's not cloudy can come up every once in a while.

I played Champions (Hero System) for many years. A disadvantage that never comes into play wasn't worth any points. A wizard will have to deal with a stat block with few HPs and poor armor often. A vampire will have to deal with radiant damage & weakened occasionally.

Also remember that there is an opportunity cost - the foe is not doing it's normal attack for damage/riders/etc. It's 10 HP and weakened, but only if they are still affected at the END of their turn. So the vampire can still attack unweakened, move to be in shade, pull out a spare cloak, or plenty of other options.

 

[WHW4]

Heck yeah you can do this. Are you fracking kidding me??

Here's my suggestion:

Have the enemy make a Grab check. If the PC doesn't escape, next turn as a standard action the enemy tries to yank that damn cloak off.

Standard Action
Str vs. Fort
Hit: rip off the dude's cloak.

DMG Page 42 ftw.

As mentioned earlier, you're the DM. Make a ruling that makes sense, is plausible, and use DMG Page 42 and other powers as guidelines. Use your best judgment.

NEVER EVER limit cool-ass tactics like this. That goes for your players as well as your monsters.

Hopefully this inspires your PCs to do something not listed in their power card section...

Why wouldn't this be v. Reflex?