Can a Slowed Creature Shift?

[Infiniti2000]

At this point, your turn ends, and negative end-of-turn effects take their course.

Negative effects already took their course upon delaying.

No. Anything having to do with delaying is no longer legal for you to do. Delaying cannot be done while dazed. If a rule kicks in saying you no longer get to choose something, you no longer get to choose it. There's nothing special about Delaying that says 'if delaying becomes illegal, take your turn immediately.'

We agree that you can no longer delay. However, just as nothing says you can now take your turn, nothing says you lose your turn either. According to the dazed condition you can still take on action this turn (including free actions). Simply, the delay ends.

If you don’t take your delayed turn before your initiative comes up, you lose the delayed turn and your initiative remains where it was.

Agreed. Nothing I've said contradicts this.

The problem is taking such an action would be using the delay procedure, which is illegal when dazed. And losing the ability to delay in no way means 'you get to take your action now'. That's not even hinted at in the rules.

I don't agree. Taking such an action is NOT using the delay procedure. It's stopping delaying and taking your action as allowed by the dazed condition. Contrary to this is that you're inducing a loss of action which is not called out by the dazed condition.

The same happens if you had a readied action for the opponent that dazed you... once dazed you cannot take immediate actions and so your reaction never takes place.

This I agree with, but your position has two reasons to disallow readied actions. The other reason is that you already took an action to ready, so once dazed you can no longer take an action. For instance, if you could still take immediate actions while dazed, then I would allow you to retain the readied action while you still would not.

As another example (A), let's say I readied to move when someone got adjacent to me. However, that move which interrupts the opponents movement provokes an opportunity attack, which dazes me. I think you would say I cannot continue my planned movement; I have to stop right there and my turn ends.

Actually, I'm not sure if it was covered before, but what if a similar situation (B) arises. I'm not readying or delaying or anything, but I take a minor and a standard and then I move. My movement provokes an OA from an unseen opponent and I get dazed. It's my position that I can finish the movement. It must therefore be your position that the movement forcibly stops because I've already taken my actions this turn and this movement violates that.

 

[keterys]

You're better off thinking of Delaying as delaying 1 initiative count as many times as necessary until you want to go - it works RAW and would sidestep even having to answer the question.

Otherwise you're back to 'You can't delay while dazed, but you chose to delay before dazed, so that part was unaffected. Is anything stopping you from taking this step of daze? 'Coming Back into the Initiative Order: After any other combatant has completed a turn, you can step back into the initiative order. Perform your actions as desired and adjust your initiative to your new position in the order.' Not explicitly, no. It's not even clear that you have to _stop_ delaying when dazed. It's just a bit of a mess.

 

[Markn]

Let's talk about this ability for a second:

Desperate Screech (free; when first bloodied, encounter) Thunder

Specifically, the timing that this goes off. To make matters simple lets say the PC uses a simple attack power, one attack, a damage roll and no other effects or conditions are applied. So, PC hits, does damage, his action is done (is it not?). Now the Desperate Screech power triggers and the monster succeeds on a hit and dazes the player. In my view, the player should still have an action left. In DS view, he shouldn't.

Despite the outcome being different, do you at least agree the timing is correct for this power?

 

[eamon]

You're better off thinking of Delaying as delaying 1 initiative count as many times as necessary until you want to go - it works RAW and would sidestep even having to answer the question.

Otherwise you're back to 'You can't delay while dazed, but you chose to delay before dazed, so that part was unaffected. Is anything stopping you from taking this step of daze? 'Coming Back into the Initiative Order: After any other combatant has completed a turn, you can step back into the initiative order. Perform your actions as desired and adjust your initiative to your new position in the order.' Not explicitly, no. It's not even clear that you have to _stop_ delaying when dazed. It's just a bit of a mess.

If you delay, you have the option to step back into the initiative order at any moment. If you're dazed, nothing's preventing you from still doing so. You are prevented from delaying again, but you don't need to - and I'd say that's just fine and dandy. Looking at the bigger picture, I think the rule preventing dazed characters from delaying is there to prevent people from delaying until the leader cures 'em or until just after the effect naturally expires. Frankly, I don't think that's a particularly worrisome strategy in the first place - so if on the off chance someone's already delayed and then is dazed and doesn't speak up to take his turn himself, I'm not going to bog the game down reminding them - it's not exactly an abusable strategy, delaying until dazed so that you can wait even longer...

It's not technically required and this is the kind of RAW vs. RAI argument I'm not prepared to have (Edit: at the gametable) when it's so unimportant to the game.

 

[RigaMortus2]

I also want to know this; powers that say "shift 6" could make a big difference when you're slowed.

Powers that say Shift 6 make a big difference, slowed or otherwise

 

[Infiniti2000]

You're better off thinking of Delaying as delaying 1 initiative count as many times as necessary until you want to go - it works RAW and would sidestep even having to answer the question.

Actually, I don't agree it works RAW. For example, let's assume we have one PC and two different monsters (with individual initiatives). The PC goes on initiative 20 and both monsters go on initiative 15, with Monster A having a higher bonus so he goes first.

It seems like you're suggesting that RAW says I cannot delay to act immediately after A and before B.

 

[keterys]

Let's talk about this ability for a second:

Desperate Screech (free; when first bloodied, encounter) Thunder

Specifically, the timing that this goes off. To make matters simple lets say the PC uses a simple attack power, one attack, a damage roll and no other effects or conditions are applied. So, PC hits, does damage, his action is done (is it not?).

It probably isn't - it's a free action that happens as soon as the monster is bloodied. There's a lot of confusion over free actions, but general consensus is that they can happen during a power. There are lots of arguments as to whether they can happen, say, between the 'X damage' and 'and push 2' parts of a power.

And yeah, my bad on the delay thing - I thought you could choose to come back in later without it _having_ to be after another person went, and so the 1 step thing would reduce # of arguments, but apparently you can't, say, delay until the sands in a timer finish running out, or a door finishes burning, or any number of other non-"other combatant" based time points. Eh.

 

[eamon]

And yeah, my bad on the delay thing - I thought you could choose to come back in later without it _having_ to be after another person went, and so the 1 step thing would reduce # of arguments, but apparently you can't, say, delay until the sands in a timer finish running out, or a door finishes burning, or any number of other non-"other combatant" based time points. Eh.

Conceptually, you can delay until after whatever you want - but the initiative order simply is only granular to the level of combatant. If the sands in a timer finish running out in player X's turn, you can go after X. If the DM sees fit to give the timer running out it's own initiative, you can go right after the timer. It's kind of like a readied action that way - even though you can ready off whatever you want to, afterwards, your initiative can't be "half-way" through that other creature's turn.

 

[DracoSuave]

You're better off thinking of Delaying as delaying 1 initiative count as many times as necessary until you want to go - it works RAW and would sidestep even having to answer the question.

Otherwise you're back to 'You can't delay while dazed, but you chose to delay before dazed, so that part was unaffected. Is anything stopping you from taking this step of daze? 'Coming Back into the Initiative Order: After any other combatant has completed a turn, you can step back into the initiative order. Perform your actions as desired and adjust your initiative to your new position in the order.' Not explicitly, no. It's not even clear that you have to _stop_ delaying when dazed. It's just a bit of a mess.

You don't stop delaying with dazed. You just cannot choose to reap any benefit out of delaying while dazed. And you cannot 'delay one initiative step.' You can delay until after the next creature's turn, but therein lies an inherent problem as well... any negative effects on you that are triggered by beginning or ends of turns will re-trigger... again... and again... and again.

Often not a problem, but when you're taking ongoing damage that can be a major issue.

 

[DracoSuave]

Just an aside not critical to the whole slow or dazed issue:
As a matter of clarity,


Keterys uses Passing Attack as an example...


Closing a door is an action. A standard action is an action. However, they're in a different class of action - let's call the first an event rather than an action to clarify that they don't necessarily require any participant to spend any kind of "consumable" action (the wind could close the door).

Triggered actions are triggered by events, not by "allocated" actions - e.g. you ready a standard action when some event comes to pass, not when the monster happens to spend a minor action. Consumable actions consist of many "events". The immediate reaction that triggers off a particular portion of Passing Attack is reacting to some event (jumping in after the event comes to pass). If you think of Passing Attack as some singular action then it's a confusing cross between reaction and interrupt - but the best way to fix that is to not think of it that way.

Correct. A reaction that triggers off of an attack or movement in passing attack might make other parts impossible to resolve, but it does not cancel the action; if the rest of the power is still able to be done you still do it. So, if the reaction moves all legal targets away, well... passing attack can't do anything more at that point. But dazed will not prevent the rest of the action from resolving. Reactions cannot invalidate actions.

Similarly, thinking of interrupts as "undoing" a completed event is confusing. Interrupts happen before the triggering events - they jump in just before an event is about to happen. As such, they can't undo an event, but rather change the circumstances such that an event never succeeds in the first place. When you impose an attack penalty as an interrupt on an attack, the attack isn't "undone" - you don't reroll the attack or whatever - you just change the circumstances and thus possibly the outcome.

Interrupts on the other hand DO have this explicit rule that says that they can invalidate actions and if so, those actions are lost. So if you passing attack, and have already moved before hand, if my interrupt dazes you, then it -can- very well invalidate the entire thing. Attacks -can- be undone and actions lost. The rules are very explicit on that.

None of the above is to say that other interpretations are wrong - it should all come down to the same thing - it's just easier to reason about this way - at least, I hope so .