Can AoO provoke AoO?

[Kai Lord]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can AoO provoke AoO?

The answer is yes. The onl;y way to negate it is the Close combat class ability and the epic feat that does the same thing.

Personally, I think allowing that epic feat as a none epic feat would be okay. You might want to talke to your DM about it.

Yeah, I just needed a precedent for the rule, and I had never even considered thrown weapons (which obviously threaten when held) as provoking attacks of oppurtunity when thrown. It makes perfect sense, for some reason it just didn't occur to me. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Pax]

Re: Re: Can AoO provoke AoO?

Yes, AOO's can absolutely trigger AOO's.

However, I don't think that this specific case you lay out would trigger an AOO against the archer. The person moving from 10' to 5' from the archer is not 5' away... they're 10' away at the time of the archer's AOO, and therefore do not (by default) threaten the archer.

Actually that's not true, as regards where the guy is or isn't.

Movement-triggered AO's are always resolved AFTER the movement is complete -- for further proof of this, read the "Stand Still" feat in the Psionics book.

I would say, the Archer WOULD trigger an AO onhimself, unless the class specifies that he does not.

The Lasher PrC from Sword and Fist does specify that use of THEIR ranged weapon (whip, etc) does NOT provoke AOs any more. Therefor, I'd say, if the class doesn't specify ... the ability isn't granted.

Of course, the bow-wielder could always aim a KICK at the fellow who triggered his AO; if he's a level of Monk, or the Improved Unarmed feat -- or natural weapons already -- then he shoudl be fine.

 

[nsruf]

Re: Re: Re: Can AoO provoke AoO?

Actually that's not true, as regards where the guy is or isn't.

Movement-triggered AO's are always resolved AFTER the movement is complete -- for further proof of this, read the "Stand Still" feat in the Psionics book.

But it isn't in the core rules, IIRC. And just because some follow-up rule confuses the issue does not constitute a proof.

In fact this sounds a bit silly: I run away from my opponent at full speed, then he strikes me dead with his AOO and I drop 120' away? I have always treated AOOs from movement as occuring precisely when the threatened character is in the appropriate position. There really seems no reason to do it differently.

 

[dcollins]

Re: Re: Re: Can AoO provoke AoO?

Movement-triggered AO's are always resolved AFTER the movement is complete -- for further proof of this, read the "Stand Still" feat in the Psionics book.

No Psionics book on the premises.

I do think that the core-rules-situation of weapons with reach is far more determinative. Or any movement out of a threatened space into a non-threatened space, for that matter.

 

[IceBear]

It's my understanding that the movement AoO occurs AS you leave the 10ft square to move to the 5ft square (at least that what the original discussions/clarifications of AoO brought to light). So, technically your figure would still be in the 10ft square when the AoO occured.

IceBear

 

[kreynolds]

It's my understanding that the movement AoO occurs AS you leave the 10ft square to move to the 5ft square (at least that what the original discussions/clarifications of AoO brought to light).

EDIT: I disagree. The Large and in Charge feat from S&F confirms this. When the creature hits you and successfully drives you back, you end up back in that square 10 feet away. The AoO occurs as you step over the threshold into the square 5-feet away, it's just that normally, to medium-size creatures anyway, it appears that the AoO comes after the step into the closer square because your target is already in there square.

So, technically your figure would still be in the 10ft square when the AoO occured.

EDIT: Not necessarily.

Sorry, IceBear. I misread your post. My bad.

 

[dcollins]

You're correct. The Large and in Charge feat from S&F confirms this.

Quite unfortunately, the Large in Charge feat says pretty much the opposite: "you can force an opponent back to the square he was in before he provoked the attack... if you win the opposed check, your opponent is pushed back 5 feet into the square he just left".

However, I definitely don't think that that can be a proper interpretation of the core rule.

 

[kreynolds]

Quite unfortunately, the Large in Charge feat says pretty much the opposite:

Not at all. It states, "you can force an opponent back to the square he was in before he provoked the attack... if you win the opposed check, your opponent is pushed back 5 feet into the square he just left", which is exactly what I said above.

If you have a 10 foot reach, then someone can step into the square 10 feet away from you and they'll be fine. When they step into the square 5 feet away from you, they provoke an AoO. What square did they step from? The square 10 feet away from you. What square do you knock them back into? The square 10 feet away from. From 10 feet, they're fine. When they step into the square 5 feet from you, they trigger the attack of opportunity, and they are pushed back to the square they were in before they provoked the attack. What square was that? 10 feet away.

It's semantics, important, but still semantics. When you step out of the 10 foot square and into the 5 foot square, you provoke the AoO, but when does the AoO actually occur? Well, where are you at that moment? You're in the square 5 feet away. Why? Because you stepped there already, and that's why you provoked the AoO. The AoO can't occur before your movement because you didn't move yet. It can, however, occur during your move.

 

[Pax]

Not at all. It states, "you can force an opponent back to the square he was in before he provoked the attack... if you win the opposed check, your opponent is pushed back 5 feet into the square he just left", which is exactly what I said above.

Right, but: to be pushed into the square BEFORE you provoke the attack, must inherently mean you are NOT in that square when the attack HAPPENS.

IOW, you start 10' away from the Big Guy. You step to 5' away -- the adjacent square. Big Guy now AOs you and pushes you BACK one square.

This means, you are being attacked when you are 5' away. AFTER YOUR MOVE.

 

[dcollins]

It's semantics, important, but still semantics. When you step out of the 10 foot square and into the 5 foot square, you provoke the AoO, but when does the AoO actually occur? Well, where are you at that moment? You're in the square 5 feet away.

I agree with you that that's what "Large in Charge" feat says.
I don't think that's compatible with the core rules.

(You seem to have said "Exactly" when IceBear asserted above that you'd "be in the 10ft square when the AoO occured", so perhaps there was some miscommunication about what you were agreeing to.)