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Can AoO provoke AoO?
- Thread starter Kai Lord
- Start date
da chicken
First Post
**Can't decide whether to post "Me too." or "I agree."**
**Wanders off in disgust.**
**Wanders off in disgust.**
Last edited:
Jack Haggerty
First Post
Back to the original question...
Yes.
Unarmed Attacks threaten AoOs, but will also draw an AoO when used (as long as your opponent is armed).
Also, Striking a Weapon, Bull Rushing, Disarming, Grappling and Tripping are all Attack Actions that can be using during an AoO, but will provoke AoOs in return, regardless of what you are using as a weapon.
So, I'd say yes, if you make an AoO with your bow, then anyone who threatens you can still make an AoO on you.
Kai Lord said:
Yes.
Unarmed Attacks threaten AoOs, but will also draw an AoO when used (as long as your opponent is armed).
Also, Striking a Weapon, Bull Rushing, Disarming, Grappling and Tripping are all Attack Actions that can be using during an AoO, but will provoke AoOs in return, regardless of what you are using as a weapon.
So, I'd say yes, if you make an AoO with your bow, then anyone who threatens you can still make an AoO on you.
drnuncheon
Explorer
Re: Re: Re: Can AoO provoke AoO?
If that were true, then reach weapons would be useless. Moving from 10' to 5' would trigger the AoO (by moving out of a threatened square), but since the polearm cannot strike within 5', the AoO could not be taken.
AoOs interrupt the action that triggers them, whether that's spellcasting or movement.
However, what people seem to be forgetting is that an AoO does not stop movement. After the AoO, the opponent finishes his move. So Stand Still and Large and In Charge are still fine:
Large and In Charge
1. Opponent begins movement.
2. AoO is triggered (opponent still at 10'), opponent is hit and takes damage.
3. Opponent finishes movement.
4. Opponent is moved back to the square they started from.
Stand Still
1. Opponent decides to move (but does not move yet).
2. Stand Still user goes before movement (because of Feat wording).
3. Opponent unable to move.
In the case of the threatening Peerless Archer, it would go like this:
1. Opponent begins movement.
2. AoO is triggered (opponent still at 10'), opponent is hit and takes damage.
3. Opponent finishes movement.
But is this the same as Combat Archery - not provoking AoOs for firing a bow in melee combat? Definitely Not. Consider these situations:
. C . . | . . . . | . . . .
. . . . | . . . . | . . . .
. . B . | . C B . | . C . .
. A . . | . A . . | . A . .
. . . . | . . . . | . . B .
----------------------------
.Fig 1. | .Fig 2. | .Fig 3.
Peerless Archer "A" is fighting Barbarian "B" and Cleric "C". B is right next to A, while C is moving in.
If A uses his threaten ability to take an AoO on C for his movement, B will get to take an AoO on A because A fired a missile weapon. (C will not get to take an AoO on A, because he was 10' away at the time of the attack.)
They wind up in Fig 2.
2. Barbarian "B" decides he's had enough and he wants to go past Peerless Archer "A". He's OK moving one square (because the first 5' of movement doesn't provoke an AoO) but when he takes the second 5' of movement, he provokes an AoO from A.
If A takes it, he will provoke an AoO from both B and C - because they both threaten him, and he is making a ranged attack. He'd be smarter to let B take another step, and then hit him as he moves out of the threat range altogether - then he only has the AoO from C to deal with. (Remember, each individual 5' of movement inside a threatened area triggers an AoO - you don't always have to take the first one!)
J
Pax said:
If that were true, then reach weapons would be useless. Moving from 10' to 5' would trigger the AoO (by moving out of a threatened square), but since the polearm cannot strike within 5', the AoO could not be taken.
AoOs interrupt the action that triggers them, whether that's spellcasting or movement.
However, what people seem to be forgetting is that an AoO does not stop movement. After the AoO, the opponent finishes his move. So Stand Still and Large and In Charge are still fine:
Large and In Charge
1. Opponent begins movement.
2. AoO is triggered (opponent still at 10'), opponent is hit and takes damage.
3. Opponent finishes movement.
4. Opponent is moved back to the square they started from.
Stand Still
1. Opponent decides to move (but does not move yet).
2. Stand Still user goes before movement (because of Feat wording).
3. Opponent unable to move.
In the case of the threatening Peerless Archer, it would go like this:
1. Opponent begins movement.
2. AoO is triggered (opponent still at 10'), opponent is hit and takes damage.
3. Opponent finishes movement.
But is this the same as Combat Archery - not provoking AoOs for firing a bow in melee combat? Definitely Not. Consider these situations:
. C . . | . . . . | . . . .
. . . . | . . . . | . . . .
. . B . | . C B . | . C . .
. A . . | . A . . | . A . .
. . . . | . . . . | . . B .
----------------------------
.Fig 1. | .Fig 2. | .Fig 3.
Peerless Archer "A" is fighting Barbarian "B" and Cleric "C". B is right next to A, while C is moving in.
If A uses his threaten ability to take an AoO on C for his movement, B will get to take an AoO on A because A fired a missile weapon. (C will not get to take an AoO on A, because he was 10' away at the time of the attack.)
They wind up in Fig 2.
2. Barbarian "B" decides he's had enough and he wants to go past Peerless Archer "A". He's OK moving one square (because the first 5' of movement doesn't provoke an AoO) but when he takes the second 5' of movement, he provokes an AoO from A.
If A takes it, he will provoke an AoO from both B and C - because they both threaten him, and he is making a ranged attack. He'd be smarter to let B take another step, and then hit him as he moves out of the threat range altogether - then he only has the AoO from C to deal with. (Remember, each individual 5' of movement inside a threatened area triggers an AoO - you don't always have to take the first one!)
J
Re: Re: Re: Re: Can AoO provoke AoO?
Suck to be the polearm wielder. Polearms aren't meant for use one-on-one. They're designed to be used in massed formations; while YOU might not be able to reach 5' away from you, FIVE of your FRIENDS behind you, and two friends off to the side, *can*. A 20-by-2 line of polearm-wielding fighters in close formation with high Dexterity and Combat Reflexes is absolute [/b]murder[/b] to beat with melee; that being the very intent of polearms, of course.
What about when the action is a trip? If you try to run away from me (triggering an AO for leaving my threat zone and/or for running), and I use my AO to TRIP you ... what happens? do you slid on your back or belly for quadruple your move? IF so, shouldn't that cause surface-dependant damage to you,or your armor?
All well and good, but it does create confusion when the form of attack is SPECIFICALLY one which would, by it's very nature, preclude movement -- a trip, or even a grapple (an Illithid with improved grab gets an AO on you as you turn and run; it hits, it gets the grapple, you're held .... do you actually carry the Illithid with you as you complete your move?).
It's a confusing dilemma, indeed.
drnuncheon said:
Suck to be the polearm wielder. Polearms aren't meant for use one-on-one. They're designed to be used in massed formations; while YOU might not be able to reach 5' away from you, FIVE of your FRIENDS behind you, and two friends off to the side, *can*. A 20-by-2 line of polearm-wielding fighters in close formation with high Dexterity and Combat Reflexes is absolute [/b]murder[/b] to beat with melee; that being the very intent of polearms, of course.
What about when the action is a trip? If you try to run away from me (triggering an AO for leaving my threat zone and/or for running), and I use my AO to TRIP you ... what happens? do you slid on your back or belly for quadruple your move? IF so, shouldn't that cause surface-dependant damage to you,or your armor?
All well and good, but it does create confusion when the form of attack is SPECIFICALLY one which would, by it's very nature, preclude movement -- a trip, or even a grapple (an Illithid with improved grab gets an AO on you as you turn and run; it hits, it gets the grapple, you're held .... do you actually carry the Illithid with you as you complete your move?).
It's a confusing dilemma, indeed.
dcollins said:
FORGET the supplement books.
Say you and I are fighting in melee; I have a spiked chain, you decide to just turn and run (low on HP, just saw the dragon that'll eat BOTH of us wake up behind me, whatever). "Run away" implies running up a switchback of stairs, 20' per flight with 5' movement needed at each switchback, with four flights. The stairs are 10' behind you, and you then want to run 10' down the cavern at the top of those stairs. Total movement of 120', a normal run for a light or medium armored (or unarmored) non-monk PC.
Now ... I get an Attack of Opportunity for you running (leaving threat zone, running through thrat zone, just plain running -- lots of ways ot trigger it). I decide to make a Trip Attack. I hit, and win the opposed Trip roll. You fall down.
Where are you when you end up prone? ALL the way at the top of the stairs, after going back-and-forth THREE times, and turning TWICE more besides?
Explain to me how that would make sense.
Yet, IGNORING the feats in supplements and the MM ... that would be a literal reading of how the movment would proceed -- with you, apparently, belly-crawling all the way up those stairs....
Now, what if, instead of tripping, I dropped the chain and tried to GRAPPLE you? Do we BOTH end up at the top of the stairs ... or do we both end up as kibble for the dragon?
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