Dursk Starkfire
First Post
unless you were a deepwood sniper and threatened with your bow... and if you were an Order of the Bow Initiate, you could draw your bow in melee without provoking AoO's.
Can I flank with a ranged attack?
- Thread starter Tidus4444
- Start date
two
First Post
duh sorry
Thanks Hong,
I did not mean to state that flanking caused dex loss... rather, flanking allowed sneak attack dice to apply. Writing quickly=dumb things often said. Sorry.
However the argument made that "In either case, you still cannot get your sneak attack with the bow because it is a ranged weapon. You would have to use the unarmed strike to get it" is balderdash as far as I can tell.
Rogue with IUS threatens an area with his feet, body, etc. Threatening is not "stopped" because the rogue has a bow in his/her hand. Maybe an IUS strike would be at -10 to hit, but it does not matter; threatening is threatening.
Thus the rogue can flank with a bow in hand via IUS, and when a rogue flanks another creature and attacks it, sneak attack dice apply. EVEN if the attack is made with a ranged weapon (incurring Aoo's). You do NOT need to attack a creature with the same weapon that you use to flank it. This is not stated anywhere in the very clear "threatening" rules. It's not stated in the sneak attack rules either, that you must attack with the flanking weapon. Either you flank or you don't. If you flank, do whach'a like.
As far as my reading of the SRD goes, nothing stops a rogue from sucking up an AOO in order to get a free ranged attack via rapid shot.
Might not be the best idea in all cases, but I can think of some where it would make sense.
It's MUCH easier to visualize if you just make it a rogue using 2 handaxes (one in each hand).
The left hand (off hand) threatens the 5' area (is not used for an attack, and thus gives no penalties to the right hand), while the right hand throws axes (using quickdraw and rapid shot) for sneak attack owiee.
When facing something that is not very melee-scary, like an enemy wizard, it's a good idea to get a "Free" rapid shot attack for potentially big sneak attack dice and suck up a low-grade aoo.
Thanks Hong,
I did not mean to state that flanking caused dex loss... rather, flanking allowed sneak attack dice to apply. Writing quickly=dumb things often said. Sorry.
However the argument made that "In either case, you still cannot get your sneak attack with the bow because it is a ranged weapon. You would have to use the unarmed strike to get it" is balderdash as far as I can tell.
Rogue with IUS threatens an area with his feet, body, etc. Threatening is not "stopped" because the rogue has a bow in his/her hand. Maybe an IUS strike would be at -10 to hit, but it does not matter; threatening is threatening.
Thus the rogue can flank with a bow in hand via IUS, and when a rogue flanks another creature and attacks it, sneak attack dice apply. EVEN if the attack is made with a ranged weapon (incurring Aoo's). You do NOT need to attack a creature with the same weapon that you use to flank it. This is not stated anywhere in the very clear "threatening" rules. It's not stated in the sneak attack rules either, that you must attack with the flanking weapon. Either you flank or you don't. If you flank, do whach'a like.
As far as my reading of the SRD goes, nothing stops a rogue from sucking up an AOO in order to get a free ranged attack via rapid shot.
Might not be the best idea in all cases, but I can think of some where it would make sense.
It's MUCH easier to visualize if you just make it a rogue using 2 handaxes (one in each hand).
The left hand (off hand) threatens the 5' area (is not used for an attack, and thus gives no penalties to the right hand), while the right hand throws axes (using quickdraw and rapid shot) for sneak attack owiee.
When facing something that is not very melee-scary, like an enemy wizard, it's a good idea to get a "Free" rapid shot attack for potentially big sneak attack dice and suck up a low-grade aoo.
This is one of those rules that will exasperate any thinking person. You SHOULD be able to flank with a ranged weapon.
The only sense I can make of the current rules is that they make combat simpler to deal with. Could you imagine how many people one archer could flank in a round? All the other reasons I've heard are a whole lotta hooey. Reality check: I stick any of you in a field with two bowman shooting at you from opposite angles and you'll know what it means to be flanked.
But hey, them's the rules. What can ya do?
wolfen
The only sense I can make of the current rules is that they make combat simpler to deal with. Could you imagine how many people one archer could flank in a round? All the other reasons I've heard are a whole lotta hooey. Reality check: I stick any of you in a field with two bowman shooting at you from opposite angles and you'll know what it means to be flanked.
But hey, them's the rules. What can ya do?
wolfen
Re: duh sorry
So, flanking doesn't have anything directly to do with the attacker threatening - only with someone else doing. The attacker has to make a melee attack, which I'll admit is pretty hard to do if you don't threaten (though it could happen - someone making an unarmed attack without Improved Unarmed Strike, for example).
What the PHB has to say about flanking is this: When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent's opposite border or opposite corner.two said:
So, flanking doesn't have anything directly to do with the attacker threatening - only with someone else doing. The attacker has to make a melee attack, which I'll admit is pretty hard to do if you don't threaten (though it could happen - someone making an unarmed attack without Improved Unarmed Strike, for example).
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
You can't flank with a ranged weapon, unless you use a prestige class.
A rogue with IUS, using a bow with Rapid Shot, can only threaten with an unarmed attack, not the bow. Unless he decided to use a bow as a melee weapon, in which case he could do so (with the -4 penalty), but only if you use the bow as a melee weapon.
To flank, you must threaten. You can't threaten with a ranged weapon.
The rules prevent ranged flanking, because that would make it too easy to get sneak attacks. (In other words, you're not suposed to be able to use a ranged weapon to flank someone.) The rogue can put his low hit point self into melee, using his no-fail Tumble skill, if he wants sneak attacks. Or he can become invisible, or wait until a foe is somehow disabled.
A rogue with IUS, using a bow with Rapid Shot, can only threaten with an unarmed attack, not the bow. Unless he decided to use a bow as a melee weapon, in which case he could do so (with the -4 penalty), but only if you use the bow as a melee weapon.
To flank, you must threaten. You can't threaten with a ranged weapon.
The rules prevent ranged flanking, because that would make it too easy to get sneak attacks. (In other words, you're not suposed to be able to use a ranged weapon to flank someone.) The rogue can put his low hit point self into melee, using his no-fail Tumble skill, if he wants sneak attacks. Or he can become invisible, or wait until a foe is somehow disabled.
And if the archer misses, does he sneak attack his flat-footed fellow party-member? (I call him "flat-footed" because I'd bet that your party-member didn't see the arrow coming at him). Does your team-mate stop flanking because he's scared you'll put the arrow into him, and therefore stop threatening your target?FoxWander said:
Crass said:
Again, the rules are a necessary compromise between realism and simplicity. I'm not arguing that ranged flanking should be shoe-horned into the existing rules set. It doesn't fit. But it's silly to pretend that it's realistic.
Ideally they'd eventually arrange the rules such that a particular set of range-attack feats would enable a person to threaten up to 30 ft with a particular weapon. This works within the rules and allows a realistic combat strength for players that want to play an archer-type character. Right now, an archer is fairly impotent compared with an axe-swinging barbarian. I think the rules could survive ranged-attack equivalent, provided sufficient feats are required.
Hopefully in V4.0
my .o2
wolfen
jayaint
First Post
this might be like a Dodge variant....
Ranged Flanking (original, I know
)
Prereqs: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Dex 17+
Benefit: Anytime you are making a ranged attack upon an enemy who is already engaged in melee with your ally, and the last 5' of your arrow's path would pass through a square that would confer a flanking bonus, you and your ally gain the +2 to attack rolls, due to flanking. You must designate ONE and only one opponent per round (on your action) as the target.
Special: You are not able to add sneak attack dice to a flanked enemy with this feat. Must be within a -2 range penalty distance to use. This does not confer an AoO to you should the chosen enemy vacate his square.
Ranged-Flanked Sneak Attack
Prereqs: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Ranged Flanking, Dex 19+, the ability to add sneak attack dice to an attack due to flanking
Benefit: The ONE target you designate as Flanked with your ranged weapon, is subject to all applicable sneak attack damage as long as he is within 30 feet.
Ranged Flanking (original, I know
)Prereqs: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Dex 17+
Benefit: Anytime you are making a ranged attack upon an enemy who is already engaged in melee with your ally, and the last 5' of your arrow's path would pass through a square that would confer a flanking bonus, you and your ally gain the +2 to attack rolls, due to flanking. You must designate ONE and only one opponent per round (on your action) as the target.
Special: You are not able to add sneak attack dice to a flanked enemy with this feat. Must be within a -2 range penalty distance to use. This does not confer an AoO to you should the chosen enemy vacate his square.
Ranged-Flanked Sneak Attack
Prereqs: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Ranged Flanking, Dex 19+, the ability to add sneak attack dice to an attack due to flanking
Benefit: The ONE target you designate as Flanked with your ranged weapon, is subject to all applicable sneak attack damage as long as he is within 30 feet.
