Can poison kill?

[Hypersmurf]

HyperSmurf, care to weigh in?

I thought I remembered a recent Sage ruling (that I disagreed with at the time) stating that an Enhancement bonus cannot affect an ability score of zero (not a non-ability, which I would agree with, but zero).

But I can't find it in RotG or the FAQ.

In any event, I agree with Knight Otu. With the Amulet, your Con is 16; you don't die until your Con is 0.

There's an interesting trick with any ability other than Con.

Let's say I have 10 Str, and wear Gauntlets of Ogre Power. I get hit with Str damaging poison, for a hundred points of Str damage.

But an ability score cannot fall below zero... so once I've taken 12 points, the other 88 have no effect. My Str is 0, and I'm paralyzed.

Now an ally takes off my Gauntlets. I lose a +2 Enhancement bonus to Str, so it drops from 0 to -2... except that an ability score cannot fall below 0, so it remains at 0.

Then the ally puts my Gauntlets back on, granting me a +2 Enhancement bonus to that 0 Str, and I'm no longer paralyzed...

-Hyp.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Just one point on this.

You do realise that you can use a heal check to grant, in effect, a second save against poison, right?

At a guess, your cleric has a pretty good wisdom. Even an untrained heal check probably has a good chance of allowing survival.

 

[BSF]

Hyp, I suspect that is the reason why you and I seem to remember reading somewhere that ability enhancements don't benefit a 0 ability score.

For ease of use, I think I would rule it that the amulet (gloves, periapt, etc) would count as your score, but if you take the item off, the damage/drain is applied against your current ability score and in that case you cannot buff back up by putting the item on.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Actually, why wouldn't the cleric die from taking 14 points of Con damage?

The Amulet gives an enhancement of +2, but if the Base Con drops to 0, that +2 doesn't mean squat. The character is already dead and the enhancement no longer kicks in.

I admit that it is a bit harsh, but wouldn't that be an accurate read of the rules?

I agree with this reading of the rules, unpopular as it appears to be. Otherwise, odd corner cases can happen--Hypersmurf has already pointed out one such possibility.

 

[Kalanyr]

The quote about stats of 0 is from a Dragon Magazine, sage advice I think.

 

[Scharlata]

Hyp, I suspect that is the reason why you and I seem to remember reading somewhere that ability enhancements don't benefit a 0 ability score. [...]

Hi!

I think you searched for this little piece of advice from the 3.0 FAQ (DnDFAQv09062002):

Q: When a character loses ability points due to a draining
attack, poison, or whatever, how do enhancements such as a
headband of intellect or gauntlets of ogre power work. Are
those points lost first? If a character takes the item off, does
the item still work? Does the character lose more points if
he takes the item off?

A: Apply ability score losses to the victim’s total score, no
matter where the score came from. An ability enhancing item is
not harmed by an ability draining attack, and if the victim takes
off the item, the victim’s ability score drops accordingly. No
ability score, however, can be reduced to less than 0.
A creature with an ability score reduced to 0 cannot benefit
from magic that enhances that ability score until rest or healing
increases the ability to at least 1. For example, a human
reduced to Strength 0 cannot benefit from a bull’s strength
spell or a belt of giant strength while the score is at 0. After a
day of rest, the character recovers 1 point of Strength and can
once again benefit from Strength enhancements.

Kind regards

 

[Hypersmurf]

Ah - yeah, that's it. I thought it was more recent than that.

So by the looks, if you have a Str of 10 and you're wearing a Belt of Giant Strength +4, and you take 13 points of Str damage, you still have 1 Str (since your Str has not dropped to zero, the FAQ clause doesn't kick in). But if you take the Belt off (so your Str drops to 0), and then put it on again, you can't benefit from it, if you use the FAQ ruling, so your Str remains 0.

-Hyp.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Hrm. I actually like this FAQ ruling a lot. I've always just treated enhancement bonuses as part of the ability score for purposes of ability drain, but then I've never had a PC drained to 0 in a stat, so I haven't had to deal with some of the zaniness found in this thread. Good stuff to know.

 

[Thanee]

"Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness."

I know that, but that doesn't change what I meant.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

But an ability score cannot fall below zero... so once I've taken 12 points, the other 88 have no effect. My Str is 0, and I'm paralyzed.

Now an ally takes off my Gauntlets. I lose a +2 Enhancement bonus to Str, so it drops from 0 to -2... except that an ability score cannot fall below 0, so it remains at 0.

Then the ally puts my Gauntlets back on, granting me a +2 Enhancement bonus to that 0 Str, and I'm no longer paralyzed...

I don't believe this is right, and certainly not how I'd play it.

Just because a score cannot fall below 0, that doesn't really mean, that there couldn't be a penalty/drain/damage higher than the score.

Would you think, that healing suddenly becomes faster, because you take off the ability enhancing item? Sounds rather stupid.

No, I'd let the character heal the full damage, counting the damage seperately, but applying it with the rule in mind, that the ability can never go below 0.

For example:

Ability of 10, +4 enhancement, 15 ponts of ability damage.

At the beginning, the ability is 0 (15 damage).
After 1 day the ability is still 0 (14 damage).
After 2 days the ability is 1 (13 damage), unless the item is taken off, than it's still 0.
After 5 days the ability is 0 plus the +4 from the enhancement, thus 4 (10 damage).
After 15 days the ability is back to normal (0 damage).

Bye
Thanee