Can the rules do this?...

EricNoah said:
1) You've seen it a hundred times -- two guys dueling hand-to-hand, and one unleashes a flurry of blows that drives the other back. The blows themselves don't hit anyone, they get parried, but the effect is that the first guy gets to move the second guy, and move with him. It's akin to a bull rush but not the same deal.

This is mechanically the same as Bull Rush, and there's absolutely no reason not to use it as a Bull Rush with different flavor.

The second goes outside the scope of current core rules, though I'm sure that some of the Complete books have this situation laid out.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I thought the rules for grappling had a section in it abotu using it to -move an opponent-? Like you had to make an opposed grapple check to move 5" with them or sumthin. No book atm so can't look it up.
 

akbearfoot said:
I thought the rules for grappling had a section in it abotu using it to -move an opponent-? Like you had to make an opposed grapple check to move 5" with them or sumthin. No book atm so can't look it up.

Yep, there is.

SRD said:
Move: You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple.
Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple.
 

RisnDevil said:
I want to say that there was a feat for #2 in Miniatures Handbook, or at least a PrC with the class feature....

You're right, the feat is called pushback. You need a strength of 17, Imp Bull Rush and Power Attack, it's a specialized bull rush which doesn't provoke an AoO and pushes your opponent back by five feet.
 

EricNoah said:
Is there a way to make existing D&D rules allow these two situations:

1) You've seen it a hundred times -- two guys dueling hand-to-hand, and one unleashes a flurry of blows that drives the other back. The blows themselves don't hit anyone, they get parried, but the effect is that the first guy gets to move the second guy, and move with him. It's akin to a bull rush but not the same deal.
The effect is the same as bullrush, so i'd use the same rules.

2) Same two guys, one attacks a particular "side" more heavily and the two combatants, end up switching positions. (They trade 5' squares, essentially).
Iron might has rules for this, Forced movement, attack at -10 if succesful oppent is move 5', but not into a occupied sqaure.
 

The Earthdawn system had something like this that I was considering converting over to d20. It was called "Give ground." Basically, for every 3 feet up to your maximum movement (the system used yards) you gave up, you got to add a bonus to your defense for that turn. You decide how much ground you want to give up, then you and your opponent roll an opposed roll. If you win, you move your character where you want within the distance you gave up, and gain your defense bonus. If you lose, you still gain the bonus to defense, but your opponent moves you where he wants within the distance (with the exception that you wouldn't move over a cliff or into a fire, etc. But your opponent could back you into a corner, or right up to the edge of a cliff). I found the idea very cool.
This is an excellent idea. Much better than some of the other suggestions that have followed it. I do not think something like this should be made into a feat, but a standard combat maneuver anyone could use. Aside from my belief that there are too many feats already and many of them for things that people should be able to do normally, there is nothing extraordinary about this kind of maneuver that makes it necessary to be a feat. A wizard being attacked by a fighter would love to have this option and wouldn't have any more difficulty giving ground than anyone else.

I do think there should be an option in there for the attacker to be able to follow if the defender wins (the defender still gets to move where he wants and still gets the AC bonus). Since the premise is giving ground and the unspoken part of that is the attacker advances on the "given" ground at the same time. And I do mean option. If the attacker sees that the defender is trying to lure him into a situation where he would be flanked or at a tactical disadvantage, he should have the option not to "fall for it".

Pressing Attack: Standard action: (AoO: Yes )
Force your opponent to move 5' as you step into the space they occupy. If you succeed at an Intimidate skill check vs DC 15 + opponents BAB, you control were your opponent moves to. This movement cannot push an opponent over a cliff or into a damage dealing hazard, but the opponent can move to the square you are vacating.

Special: If your opponent is fighting defensively, he gains double benefit from this tactic against an AoO generated by your pressing attack.

Movement draws AoO as normal, so you gain an AoO against your opponent if he had moved during his previous turn. Other combatants may be entitled to AoO's as well.

Improved Pressing Attack {General/Fighter}
You gain +4 to your Intimidate checks in a Pressing Attack and do not draw an AoO from the action. You may still draw AoO's from any related movement.

Thoughts?
Interesting idea, but there are many opponents that you just cannot intimidate into moving regardless of a skill check. That and what if they are too stupid to move or just flat out don't want to. Someone or something that is immune to fear cannot be intimidated. Also, you are basically forcing someone to take a 5' step. Taking a 5' step, as per the PHB, NEVER draws an AoO. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you. It seems that I'm also reading it like you're trying to get an AoO for the defender moving in a previous round. I'm not aware of any action that draws AoOs in future rounds. And it seems like the attacker would be drawing an AoO as soon as he moved out of his current space (and into the occupied space).

This mechanic seems too powerful by being able to force an opponent to move and draw an AoO just by making a simple skill check, that any mid/high level character could ace.

This is mechanically the same as Bull Rush, and there's absolutely no reason not to use it as a Bull Rush with different flavor.
The difference is Bull Rush is an action. What's being suggested is something that just simply occurs, that doesn't require a standard or full attack action to make happen.

Iron might has rules for this, Forced movement, attack at -10 if succesful oppent is move 5', but not into a occupied sqaure.
By your own definition, it's not the same since it prohibits moving into occupying squares. The switching spaces thing, like the giving/taking ground, is something that both combatants have to be willing to do. You can't always make someone move, especially if they don't want to, and you definitely can't make them move where you want them to if they aren't willing. A dwarf defending a tunnel isn't going to move out of that tunnel just because you take a bad swing at it or try to intimidate him into moving. And you're not going to be able to do that with an animal or even Dragon, so that's not even a practical mechanic. Do you think a Dire Bear is going to move just because some shiny "snack" scratched it? Or do you think a Dragon or a Giant would really move because the knight came up and stabbed it with what would amount to be a very small toothpick?
 




EricNoah said:
1) You've seen it a hundred times -- two guys dueling hand-to-hand, and one unleashes a flurry of blows that drives the other back. The blows themselves don't hit anyone, they get parried, but the effect is that the first guy gets to move the second guy, and move with him. It's akin to a bull rush but not the same deal.

Isn't this the Advancing Blows tactic in the Combat Brute feat? (Complete Warrior)
 

Remove ads

Top