Can we make the Grim-n-Gritty rules a little less... grim?

[Desdichado]

While I think Grim and Gritty is very much built for the kinds of games I enjoy most, the same effect can be had (to a certain extent) by just slowing level progression to 2e-like levels as well. I agree, though -- can we get some more info on your desired outcome?

 

[DWARF]

Blast University and these darn midterms. Okay, I managed to get some time away from the massive amount of books and assignments and get back here today.

Now, I'm going to be using Arcana Unearthed as the base rules set for this new campaign, and want to use the GnG, or something like it to make it a bit more gritty. The setting will be in a desert with an ancient eqyptian-like society, giving the game a feel sort of like Dune or Dark Sun. As such, the spellcasters will be very rare, but very powerful.

I think the way to do this the simplest is to use GnG as it is right now, but modify HP's by level as per Nifft's suggestion, HD/3.

But I'm still not sure what to do with spellcasters. Most, if not all, spellcasters will be very rare and powerful, but also watched very carefully. The Magisters and Mage Blades will be exclusively trained by a single "guild". Individuals or groups may go rogue after training, but no one can learn these classes without training at the guild. Witches I was going to leave as a Verrik-only, or nearly Verrik-only option, as my campaign setting will feature a less "giant dominated" empire and have a more diverse set of kingdoms instead. So as a result, Verrik will have the near monopoly on Witches. Some people in different races may have the potential to become witches, but without training they won't go far... and you know what happens to witches in paranoid lands...

That leaves the Greenbond and Runethanes. Not sure I like the Greenbonds much, and probably will remove them completely, or change them to a more Desert-centric "Fremen" idea, with a reduced spell list. Runethanes I'm not sure what to do with. Personally, the idea of a rune-caster to me seems like a very regulated, learned structure, but they're supposed to be like Sorcerors. I think I may have them as a Giant-ish institution; despite Giants general dislike for the written word. It could be kind of a cultural antithesis as the powerful spellcasters need not only written words to learn and record their study, but also use runes to cast magic, a power which most giants disdain as they dislike written language.

Keep the ideas coming guys, thanks!

 

[DWARF]

a bit of an addendum;

Firstly, I'm looking to make the characters either in or involved with a very influential noble family in a fairly large kingdom. As a result, they'll have a lot of resources at their disposal. Starting level will be between 3 and 7; depending on the character. I'm kind of burned out of games where the players are all nobodies with no money fighting a great evil while the kings and governments can't really do anything about it. I want a game where goverments and armies are facing the dragons and monsters, and the characters will be a part of that system.

Do realize that I don't really care about "balance" between classes or races. Faen will get half hit points, Sprytes will get a quarter the hit points, as compared to a medium sized combatant, and Giants at full size WILL get double hit points.

I'm also altering races so Giants get +4 to Str as opposed to +2, Litorians get +2 to BOTH strength and dexterity. Some other races may get different bonuses, or removal of their drawbacks, like the Verrik, I'm considering removing their -2 to Cha.

I don't like balance, I don't want it in a game I run. Some of the best and most memorbale characters are the unbalanced ones. In my game, Giants are really strong. Is it fair? Who cares about fairness in the rules, I'm there to run a game where it's set up as "Giants are stonger, what are you going to do about it?" or, "A single high-level wizard could decimate a city if properly prepared for it, so what are you going to do when one wants you to empty the city coffers or he will destroy the city?"

While every race can be any class, that hardly means that they'll do as well as another race. The games there to be fun, but the system I want for this campaign where the world is set up as a harsh, unfair place. If the players want to be heroes and try and bring about a "balance" or "fairness" as they see it, okay; but I'll also allow them to be despots as well.

 

[Xythlord]

First off I can completely sympathize with what your are trying to do, as I am doing something very similair with the GnG system for my own campaign world (although I am going with all new classes (no phb) and changing races to suit my flavor).

I decided to go with the WP/VP system, allowing all the crit damage to go straight to WP. WOunds taken will affect characters with a penalty until healed, with the severity depending upon the wound level. I also use the DR for armor rules and have adopted all the called shot rules from the GnG. One thing I did change was having crits do normal damage (although directly to wounds), with a added penatration value based upon the weapons original critical multiplier (i.e. -1 pt for x3, 2 pts for x4, etc.) Crossbows have a greater penetration value than normal, but range is crap. The called shot rules need to be modified slightly to allow for this change.

As for the magic system, this required some severe changes....ones which I am extremely happy with and my prospective players are eager to try out. I have used the spell point rules from midnight (i.e. -spell points are gained from primary attribute, with a +1 equaling 1 pt. -and feats / mystic class that gains an additional point per caster level. Spells cost 1 pt per spell level to cast, so a fireball costs 3 pts. the last thing is that anybody with the proper feats can cast spells -so no palidins or rangers, or clerics for that matter).

The spells do damage straight to the victims WP (harsh I know, but it makes up for the limited amount of spells they can cast) except for shadow spells which do VP damage.

What this has done for my campaign world is create an atmosphere where the few spell casters are powerful and feared but not omnipotent or even commonplace (there are many other rules I have tweaked out). Combat is cinimatic but deadly, with even lower level characters in armor being a challenge to an unarmored higher level one. Strategy and ranged weaponry is very important, with surprise encounters leading to possible slaughter. Monsters of all CR's are surprisingly tough and the few magic items available are precious.

If you would like to see some of the changes I have made let me know and I will send it forward (or just reply in this post and I will answer questions). Right now the system (and classes / magic ....weapons and armor need some more work) is just about done. RL / Work is slowing me down.

 

[Scion]

Xythlord, when you are done with your write up I would love to have a copy of it. (any reason my pm isnt working? )

I've been trying to make some use of this system with a few tweaks to make smaller characters still viable, my efforts so far have not gone incredibly well

I think it may even require to take a few other stats into play, perhaps for some other kind of wounds, bonus resistances, or something..

hope that it goes well for you!

 

[Xythlord]

dunno, I just tried to PM you as well and was told that I did not have permission to access that ,

Anyways, ya I could send you over a copy of the rules set I have been working on (I have not in any way finished the races for my campaign though). Please remember that this campaign I am working on will be mostly from scratch. I have taken a few ideas from some games for the classes (I have: a heavily modified Barbarian, a Warrior, Defender [same idea, different rules from midnight], Mystic, Noble, Specialist [think skills master, but more usefull], Swordthane [light armor fighter], Wanderer, and Woodsman). I also use my own spell list (using spells from many sources all listed out and referenced), with several different catagories (like: 4 elements, nature, summoning, war, necromancy, healing, illusion, shadow, Abjuration, Charm, Etc.) The magic system can be used by any character with the proper feats (one to learn, plus one for each school). Prestige classes will be rare and limited to either flavor classes (shadeborn, Wizard, Warg) or tied to an organization (Knight of the Realm, Circle Master, Edonai Pit Fighter, Inquisitors, Sea Elven Drake Rider, Orcish Blood Rider, etc.)

One of the things that I have had to work on was the tremendous advantage that larger creatures have in the way of damage capacity (seeing as a huge dragon has x4 the number of CON for WP). While this was not such a problem for monsters (I want them to be tough) it does make a problem for smaller player races. For small races (halflings, etc.) they are 1/2 their CON for WP and tiny races (like the fean) get 1/4. This is somewhat mitigated by the increase in defense, but it still makes for a short lifespan when you get into a physical fight.

One factor that increases the life expectancy of these guys is the VP stat. This will increase with level, just like normal hp would. Another thing that you have to consider is that when building these races within this system they must be "upped" in power. You may give a natural talent or skill bonus to compensate or just increase the Dex bonus (but be careful as all the skills are also thereby increase). The simplest method is to give a +1 Dodge bonus, in addition to the Def bonus they recieve for being Small size (or a +2 in addition to the +2 for Tiny). This way they get hit less often, but when it does.....well everybody expected Frodo to be a interesting looking stain when the Troll stabbed him with a spear.

Hope that helps (and sorry for long rundown on my campaign....sometimes I just get excited )

 

[sinmissing]

How about:
1: Don't scale magical damage with level.
2: Reduce damage die one step.
2: Base damage on spell level, not caster level, unless the description of the spell already has a lower damage type. Energy Bolt [Fire] would do 3d4 damage. (A third level spell). Feedback Strike would do 3d4+1 damage. (A 7th level spell)
3: Laden or Heighten a spell, and increase the damage 1 die.

Standard:
A 5th level fighter has an average of 30hp. (No Con bonus)
A fireball, by a 5th level mage, does an average of 15 points.
If the fighter doesn't save, 2 fireballs would kill him.

Gritty Style:
A 5th level fighter with a 10 con would have 14hp.
A fireball, regardless of caster level, does an average of 6 points.
Two fireballs might still kill the fighter.

I think these options are already given in GnG (haven't read the rules in a while), seems about right. Considering that AU has a much more toned down spell list, why not go with the suggestions in GnG?

 

[Scion]

Whenever you have it all written up and ready I'd love to get a copy to see what I can steal

I am thinking that for smaller races I may just have to make them -1 LA. It really seems like the only thing that comes close to balancing them out in any way, shape or form, but seems heavy handed Maybe one extra level of a npc class, but that seems like they get nearly nothing for the level at that point.. I just dont know.

Also, useing psionics instead of magic (or with the same system of damage) goes a pretty good distance to fixing some problems. (1 die of damage per pp used, so the equivalent would be [level *2]-1 in dice, area effects are d4 whereas single target is d6. then you add on the normal modifiers from the gng system.)