Can you counter a Silent + Still Spell?

[lupo]

In order to identify a spell with spellcraft, you need to be able to see the gestures or hear the words. If a spell is metamagiced with silent and still (and to end argument assume that the caster has the Eschrew Materials feat), does this mean that the spell can not be identified by spellcraft, and thus can not be countered?

I am pretty sure my intrepretation is wrong, but I do not see a discussion of this anywhere in the PHB or ELH.

Can someone please clarify

Thanks

 

[maddman75]

In the PHB pg 74, the various DCs do indeed say that you need to get a spellcraft DC= 15+level, assuming you can see or hear the spell's components. It does NOT say that you cannot ID a spell whose components you cannont see, just that you can't at that DC.

I'd probably use the 'Identify spell already in place' DC, which is 20 + level. I don't believe its the designer's intent to have silent+stilled (or quickened) spells be immune to counterspells.

Anyone know of anything from the Sage on this? I'd check the FAQ, but wizard's web site appears to be having issues.

 

[DMFTodd]

Edit: Cuz I found a better answer.

 

[Caliban]

In the PHB pg 74, the various DCs do indeed say that you need to get a spellcraft DC= 15+level, assuming you can see or hear the spell's components. It does NOT say that you cannot ID a spell whose components you cannont see, just that you can't at that DC.

I'd probably use the 'Identify spell already in place' DC, which is 20 + level. I don't believe its the designer's intent to have silent+stilled (or quickened) spells be immune to counterspells.

Anyone know of anything from the Sage on this? I'd check the FAQ, but wizard's web site appears to be having issues.

Tome and Blood suggests increasing the DC by +2 for every component the spell is missing. So a Silent Still spell is +4 to the DC.

Logically this means that certain spells would harder to ID than others (i.e. Teleport only has a verbal component, so it would be +4 due to the lack of somatic and material components), but it's probably to much to keep track of during a regular session.

 

[DMFTodd]

Can I change my answer?

Page 74 says you have to see or hear the spell being cast. So if it's silent and still, you can't see it or hear and therefore cannot ID it as it is being cast.

 

[lupo]

SO,

Can you counter it or not?

and if you can, what is the DC. I think that it has to be a little more than just +2, if it isnt then it makes the epic automatic silent/still Epic feats seem greatly underpowered

 

[maddman75]

Page 74 says you have to see or hear it being cast to identify at DC 15 + Spell Level. It does not say that you must hear or see the components to ID the spell at all. The logical conclusion would be that the DC would be higher, as stated in Tome and Blood.

 

[DMFTodd]

I don't play with any of the splat books so I can't comment on them.

Page 74 seems pretty clear: "You *must* see or hear the spell..."

It does not say that you must hear or see the components to ID the spell at all

So where are the rules for alternate DCs if you can't see or hear the spell? I don't see any in the Core books.

Spellcraft also says that learning a spell from a scroll is DC 15 + Spell Level (Wizard Only). Does that mean my fighter can learn spells, it's just that DC is higher? After all, it doesn't specifically say fighters can't learn a spell.

"You must see or hear the spells verbal or somatic components". Seems pretty clear to me but I've been wrong before.

 

[Destil]

In order to identify a spell that's already in place, it needs to be... uhm... already in place. You need to counter it before that, once you can see or detect the effects of the spell it's too late to counter it, you need to dispel it instead. Relevent text:

PH: (74) "20 + spell level Identify a spell already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell." to identify a spell in place.
PH: 152" If the target it within range, both spells automaticaly negate each other with no other results."

Since there are no results when a spell is counterspelled (aside from side effects from the accual casting process, like using up expendable components, because the spells are still cast) it follows that once a spell has visible or detectable results (or effects, same thing) it's too late to counter it. Likewise the spell must be specificaly be already in place and in effect this never happens when a spell is countered. It's bascily a paradox: You can't counter it unless you can detect it, you can't detect it (without components) unless it's in place, it can go into place if it's countered.

(note that the real issue is why foci and material components don't give the spell away. Even I know that guanno == fireball, and I don't even have any spellcraft ranks)

 

[kreynolds]

Since there are no results when a spell is counterspelled (aside from side effects from the accual casting process, like using up expendable components, because the spells are still cast) it follows that once a spell has visible or detectable results (or effects, same thing) it's too late to counter it. Likewise the spell must be specificaly be already in place and in effect this never happens when a spell is countered. It's bascily a paradox: You can't counter it unless you can detect it, you can't detect it (without components) unless it's in place, it can go into place if it's countered.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, check page 152 of the PH, Counterspells. Here's a snip...

&nbsp&nbsp&nbspHow Counterspells Work: To use a counterspell, you must
select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. You do this by
choosing the ready action (page 134). In doing so, you elect to wait
to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell.
(You may still move your speed, since ready is a standard action.)
&nbsp&nbsp&nbspIf the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell, make a
Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level). This check is a free
action. If the check succeeds, you correctly identify the opponent’s
spell and can attempt to counter it. (If the check fails, you can’t do
either of these things.)