Can You Guys Help Me Get My Head Around Chaotic Neutral? Now with Bonus Material!

[Nahat Anoj]

Chaotic societies don't have traffic laws.

When someone inevitably gets runover...

Here's how I view it. When an evil happens:

CGs will go out of their way to assist the victim, even if he's a stranger. However, they will do so on their own terms, ignoring any apparatus of state (unless doing so would be obviously fatal). This could mean that they team up with a band of friends of like-minded individual, but IMO their sense of independence means that such alliances tend to be short-lived.

CNs won't assist the victim if he's a stranger IMO. However, if the victim is someone personally important to them somehow (friend, family member, valued ally, good-looking and potentially "grateful" , etc.), CNs would respond in a manner similar to CGs. Additionally, if the evil perpetrated on the victim had lawful overtones, motivated CNs with political axes to grind might seek out vengence against the evils of authority and law.

CEs probably would take delight in the victim's misfortune, unless the victim was somehow important to their plans.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

I agree. It surprises me that so many in this thread are asserting that concepts of "society", "laws" or "organized groups" are anathema to CN individuals. The difference between LN and CN isn't that one forms organized groups and writes laws while the other doesn't. The difference is that LN people form groups, create organizations and write laws because their general philosophy is that such things are good and they are more comfortable in those settings, while CN form groups, create organizations and write laws as an act of compromise, with the understanding that it is a necessary evil (or the lesser of two evils). CN people will still participate in "structured society" (even hierarchical ones) when the alternatives presented by not participating are distasteful enough. (IMO, YMMV)

I do agree that there are circumstances where CNs would join organizations or *gasp* submit to authority . I just think that, given their independent nature, such actions would be purely matters of convenience. IMO it's difficult for organizations to maintain long-term viability if their members leave whenever it's no longer convenient to be a member. Such organizations would tend to be libertarian in the extreme IMO.

 

[phindar]

I had the day off today, and ended up watching PotC1. Cap'n Jack's line near the end was a fair if laconic description of (at least one type) of CN. "They did what was right by them. Can't expect anything more.

That said, I think the idea of a CN place is fairly easy to conjure, just going by the examples provided. Deadwood, Tombstone, Bartertown, Las Vegas, Tortuga, and so on. Some of these are defined by their essential lawlessness, some by the chaotic nature of their laws. For me, the weird nature of this place would be less exemplified by its Chaotic nature, and more by its location in the Shadow Plane.

 

[joshhg]

PotC 3's pirate council

Spoiler

looked pretty chaotic, but they followed the pirate code to the letter, even if it was more like guidelines. They guy who suggested not following the book was shot.

Plus, ships tend to have one captain who is in a position of nigh-unquestioned authority, not exactly a model of lawlessness.

I'll have to disagree with you here. In the scene you mentioned,

Spoiler

I see it as that everyone there but the guy with the book was chaotic, but he was lawful, and no-one wanted to mess with him.

It wasn't that they were lawful, it was that he was such a bada** that no-one would disagree with him, even when he

Spoiler

shot on of the lord's crew. And right after that, Jack did a very chaotic thing, he grabbed what was avaliable and used the 'law' to his advantage, even when he didn't really follow it.

So it wasn't a lawful society, it was just a chaotic one with law enforced by a stronger force, for the time being. Like when a person who doesn't obey all of the traffic laws straiten up when they see a cop. But as soon as he's out of sight, right back to speeding.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

Again, CN is pretty much indistinguishable from evil in this scenerio (and is incapable of rational thought)...

Well, I wouldn't call "not caring" the same as being evil, but, as with all things, YMMV .

With regards to being incapable of rational thought, allow me to play Devil's Advocate (perhaps "Slaadi's Advocate" would be a more precise ).

CN philosophers in my games might be saddened by people dying because of non-existent street laws - the person no longer has the ability to exercise their personal freedoms, and that's a tragic fate. But they are consoled by the fact that it's a small price to pay for the liberties that people enjoy. Such unfettered liberty insures that artists have complete freedom to create works that enlighten the human spirit, inventors have no restrictions on building machines that bring profit to them (and, in turn, others), and allows those who perceive they are slighted in some way to seek reparations in a manner they see fit. These things are valuable, because they insure fewer boundaries and tend to lead toward greater self-expression and the betterment of one's self and others. Indeed, CN philosophers note, it is an ironic truth that good of the many is best served by bestowing unfettered liberty on the many. Of course, this "benefit" is incidental, and actively trying to promote this would taint such efforts with law and dictum so as to subvert and destroy this process.

Some might say that having traffic regulations and punishments for violoating them would tend to discourage future "crimes," perhaps saving the life of someone who might one day become a great artist, scientist, inventor, or other great creator. Hogwash, say these CN philosophers. Individuals are perfectly capable of defending their own interests, and if they feel slighted by someone (perhaps because he ran over a friend of family member) they are empowered to do whatever they feel is necessary to address this slight. To suggest otherwise is to impose limitations on individuals which invariably lead to stagnation and other social ills.

Should someone slight too many individuals, the combined efforts of those slighted will tend to result in the perpetrator suffering a fate considered acceptable by those slighted. Thus the process tends to enforce itself. But the process works only when no laws are applied - imposing rules and regulations might appear to yield benefits, but the establishment of laws results in a system whereby only a select few law-makers dwell in comfort. The rest of society dwells in alienation, disempowerment, and weakness, unable to fully explore the reaches of their soul and unleash their creative power.

Dropping the mantle of "Slaadi's Advocate," I have to say that I find a lot of the above to be kind of absurd. In addition, it's something that would be promulgated by some ivory tower sage, sheltered from the "realities" of such a belief. And while it might have the ring of logic, Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal" shows that what sounds logical or scholarly can actually be quite illogical. However, it's only a few steps away from some RL libertarian thinkers (although the vast majority of libertarians that I know of would be very much against having the liberty to, say, kill someone - many of them would say that the state would be necessarily have to try to prevent such an act).

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Just an addendum:

Firstly, thank you everyone for responding in such a considered way. I really appreciate your thoughts and efforts.

When I posted the original post, I deliberately left out specific details so as to get a general view of a chaotic neutral "society" - by society, I mean purely having numerous people/creatures in proximity. Now though, I thought I'd post an excerpt from the Tome of Magic for more specific opinion on the matter.

The Khayal and the City of Onyx​

This being appears to be a muscled, wiry human. His skin is a dark and dusky grey; his beard, pants, and vest of deepest black. His eyes appear empty, naught but tunnels into the darkest night.

The Khayal dwell apart from the rest of geniekind, who they view with varying degrees of antipathy. They are particularly hostile toward the Jann, with whom they have fought a hidden and sporadic war for eons. Just as the Jann are genies formed of all four elements, sages postulate that the first Khayal were elemental spirits that materialized outside the four elements. Lacking any form at all, they drifted around the periphery of genie society, until they finally bonded their emptiness with the shadow of the elements. Whether this theory is accurate or not, it is undeniable that the Khayal consider themselves apart from others of their kind.

Khayal look down upon most other races, including humans and other humanoids. They think of these creatures as weak and delight in deceiving them. Deception is a fine art among the Khayal, who seem to have dishonesty in their blood. They are consummate liars, but tradition demands that should a “lesser being” ever confront one of the Khayal with irrefutable proof that the individual has lied to him, the genie must then perform a service for that individual in penance for being found out. Of course, some Khayal cleave to this tradition with greater devotion than others. On occasion, the Khayal offer to assist mortals who have impressed them – often with their own abilities of deception – or those with whom they share a common goal. In such circumstances, the Khayal always assumes a leadership role, and might be surprised that the others don’t simple accept him as a superior.

Khayal are usually the size of tall humans. Each speaks common, any one elemental language and any one alignment language.

Khayal are courageous and swift combatants, confident of their prowess and easily offended. They consider the concept of a fair fight to be a ludicrous one and make frequent use of their spell-like abilities, sneak attacks, and ambush tactics. Khayal are willing to retreat in the face of a losing struggle, but they find flight humiliating and hold grudges against those who drive them to it.

Most Khayal make their homes in the City of Onyx on the Plane of Shadow. This is a community of twisted spires and high minarets, protruding in all directions and paying no heed to the laws of architecture or physics. The Malik al-Khayal, the King of Shadows, rules the Khayal from the Grand Palace of Endings. The city’s marketplaces bustle with all manner of races and travellers, individuals who make use of the Plane of Shadow as a byway between other planes, but the centre of the city is off limits to non-Khayal.

The Khayal penchant for deception does not extend to their own race. A Khayal thinks nothing of deceiving a human, an elf, or a member of one of the other genie races, but he never lies to another Khayal. Gender is a relative non-issue among the Khayal; the City of Onyx makes few distinctions between its male and female citizens.

Other Khayal communities exist across the Plane of Shadow. They operate on similar principles, although their rulers usually claim the title of Emir. Nobody but the true King can claim the title of Malik.

Essentially, how do you think the City of Onyx would work in regards to the Khayal's alignment of Chaotic Neutral? Does CN even fit the description given?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Celebrim]

Dropping the mantle of "Slaadi's Advocate," I have to say that I find a lot of the above to be kind of absurd.

I find that as a DM you have to maintain a certain intellectual nuetrality in order play the character. Maybe that's just a trait of role playing in general, because I've also had PC's whose belief systems I consider to be a load of crap.

But that sort of intellectual neutrality is precisely what I find lacking in most discussions of alignment. Too often discussions of alignment end up being discussions of which alignment is corrent, and not whether the overall partition of philosophies is internally consistant.

 

[DarkKestral]

Plus, ships tend to have one captain who is in a position of nigh-unquestioned authority, not exactly a model of lawlessness. Tortuga from PotC1 though looked pretty lawless.

No, real-life pirates almost always questioned the authority of their captains. That's the reason they were democratically elected. Plus, any member of the crew with sufficient power (and that was the majority of the crew) would be able to call a vote of no-confidence in the captain or his policies (not the same, but basically very, very close) at ANY time, meaning the captains had to please their crews by picking spots where there was easy plunder, capture enough treasure to keep them satisfied, and manage to not tick off the crew badly enough to inspire such a vote, because such votes tended to be fatal to the losing party.

Pirates also had a propensity for contracts and codes of conduct in regards to how they would treat each other and sometimes prisoners (prisoners could occasionally be ransomed for a lot of cash) plus how they would divvy out funds, and were generally quite detailed, even codifying the rules for things that were minor elements of ship life. These contracts were usually enforced by strength, and there were likely more than a few ways of getting around the rules, so they really were more like 'guidelines' than one might guess from the term contract.

Thus, pirates were often classic CN. Their organizations changed with the tide, the political winds, and sometimes personal whim. What order they had was the result of having 20-50 fairly greedy men packed in a small ship for long periods of time; rules developed only because they were agreed to as being better than the status quo, and were only in force when people wanted them to be in force. However, many of the most famous pirate leaders were TN or NE though, willing to side with whatever ethical choice seemed the best at that time, and a few were probably solidly LN or LE.



As for my input, I think that the best quick description of what CN societies favor is "competition, change, and possibilities."

This means that, in my opinion, CN society should have a bunch of elements; radical libertarianism of the "there is no such thing as a state" type, a 'state' ran by force of arms with (usually competing) grand policies only occasionally carried out prone to corruption and a general lack of directive though it occasionally manages some real good, and a rampant cultural scene always looking after the next big thing. Greed will be commonplace, and it won't be seen as a bad thing, entirely. CN societies will also probably have a very strong sports culture; after all, competition is bred into the bones of ones raised in such a society. All of these things are going to happen at once; the currents of competition, creativity, and change are too strong in the individuals to make anything happen in an orderly progression without someone more powerful than the rest ensuring it happens that way. However, the desire here isn't for that orderly progression, as most look towards the possibilities that most aid their goals that can come out of this constant change, so people look to exploit it.

Where there is tradition, expect it to be very hidebound though, as Chaotic people tend to be stubborn, and maybe even more hidebound than is the case with Law, because those who hold to the tradition will dislike anyone who breaks their 'rules', despite their own doing so if they believe it to be the optimum course. This is the minefield of Chaos though.. it tends to be fluid, except where it isn't.

CG takes these aspects and lessens the corruption aspect and increases the societal welfare aspect, so there will be less obvious greed and a reduced tendency towards fighting as a means of dispute resolution. The force of arms aspect is more force of respect, because conflict tends to be mediated less violently on the Good side of the spectrum.

CE (rather obviously) goes the other way; corruption is more prevalent, fighting more common, and greed is everpresent. Creativity is more often applied to the aims of hurting others, and the arts are probably less common, except as a means of displaying wealth.

EDIT:

Essentially, how do you think the City of Onyx would work in regards to the Khayal's alignment of Chaotic Neutral? Does CN even fit the description given?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

Actually, they sound pretty solidly CN. I would imagine that the City of Onyx will be fairly libertarian (only for Khayal though), though it will have a very entrenched honor system (this is evidenced by the lying rules and the way they treat each other), but those rules are idiosyncratic to the extreme, a common Chaotic trait, and when they break them, it sounds like they do so pretty flagrantly, yet another Chaotic trait. I'm going to assume that the Malik is generally the noble with the most power accruing to him, but that other members of the nobility are always lusting after the position, so that despite the nominal ruler being the Malik, there's a core powerbase that opposes him/her so that the management style won't be out of the question for a Chaotic city either.

For non-Khayal, I'd make it's laws a maze of conflicting rules, exceptions, loopholes, and other miscellaneous ways to point out that non-Khayal are second-class citizens, by making them criminals for existing. However, make it so that if they are supported by a Khayal, those conflicts seemingly 'disappear', and their ability to do what they wish becomes limited only by their strength.

 

[Celebrim]

Essentially, how do you think the City of Onyx would work in regards to the Khayal's alignmnt of Chaotic Neutral? Does CN even fit the description given?

Yes, it fits the description given, but the given description is of chaotic neutrality taken to an extreme which is probably super-human - 'Chaotic Neutral' as the ammoral fey alignment.

The shadow motiff and the penchant for decietfulness suggests a tendency to evil, though the description doesn't seem to pass all the way in to true evil. There is nothing particularly chaotic about deliberate deception IMO. Incidental deception is a mere side effect of chaos, but deliberate and active deception is something else. I suspect that the designer disagreed, and thought the aspect of deciever made them more chaotic. So it goes.

It would seem that as far as the Khayal are concerned, the city exists to give them a ready source of marks to dupe. Wise denizens of the city would simply ignore anything that the Khayal said, which makes for an interesting dynamic, as the 'rulers' of the city can only rule over the fools that don't know better. Newcomers to the city are likely to find that there are an enormous number of rules and regulations. *wink* *wink*

I would guess that the outer city more or less resembles what has been described in earlier posts, with the added complication of quite powerful, whimisical, decievers roaming around trying to make a fool out of everyone in sight. I would suspect this would somewhat taint the culture, making almost everyone over time into a jaded liar and con-artist, with the same sort of clannish ethics pasing over into the demi-human community. In other words, "It's not lying if you aren't lying to family." Interestingly, situational ethics like that are quite common in real world tribal societies.

 

[davidschwartznz]

Again, CN is pretty much indistinguishable from evil in this scenerio (and is incapable of rational thought)...

It's not that CNs don't care (if either party is someone they know, they certainly care), it's that they recognize that they can't control everything (and its more fun that way). The two parties should both have been more careful, but who are we to dictate their actions?

As for the Khayal, they sound CN to me (a bit like Hollywood-style gypsies actually). They like to sow confusion, and only stop when they know they can't get away with it (like around their own kinfolk).