Can You Guys Help Me Get My Head Around Chaotic Neutral? Now with Bonus Material!

[AFGNCAAP]

In regards of the OP (and without reading most of the prior responses):

I'd have to say that a CN society is dominated by a Charismatic leader who's won the hearts of the people. Every once in a while, the leader makes a "grand gesture" to show why he's the leader, but he more-or-less has a hands-off approach unless it affects him personally or the entire society (e.g. "We all need to do this or we'll all die..." sort of thing).

Otherwise, the city's just one big aquarium, and other than making sure that it's fed and there's not a lot of fish floating on the surface, he just looks at it every once in a while and leaves it alone.

(Note I'm writing this with Jack Sparrow in mind as the head of such a society. )

I'd say there'd be a mob rules mentality that maintains some degree of decency (hence why they're not CE). Prone to break out in lynch mobs if someone's really been bad/becomes a public scapegoat.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

Essentially, how do you think the City of Onyx would work in regards to the Khayal's alignment of Chaotic Neutral? Does CN even fit the description given?

I think CN suits these guys. They appear to have traditions (serving those who show they lie) and stark limitations on behavior (they never lie to another Khayal), but I'm inclined to consider these as idiosyncracies of the race as opposed to severe departures from CN. In addition, they believe that only the true king can call himself Malik, but nothing about their write-up suggests that their king does a whole lot or rules with an especially heavy hand. The Malik al-Khayal seems to be largely irrelevant! Others may disagree with them being CN, but, at least for me, they don't cross the line. Unfortunately, I can't really articulate when the line would be crossed.

As far as how the city would actually function, I think among the Khayal themselves it would be pretty much CN and largely egalitarian. However, interactions among the Khayal and their non-Khayal subjects would be a little less pleasant! The Khayal lie frequently, so the populace would have difficulty believing them. If they ever did, it's likely that bad things would happen. The Khayal penchant for lying seems like it could be mean-spirited and potentially cause harm, but it doesn't seem to extend to the same level of perversion and sadism that lies spoken by some demon would IMO. However, at least for me the Khayal are wavering at least a little bit more to evil. In any case, I think the denizens of the city would try to avoid gaining the attention of their fickle and capricious masters. However, because confronting the Khayan about their lies leads to such benefits, I think many denizens would be skilled at listening in on conversations and hoarding secrets. In markets and bazaars these secrets might then be sold as if they were a commodity by "secretmongers."

I actually think the Khayal are kind of cool. I might use them in an Arabian Adventures or Caliphate Nights game sometime in the future.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

It might be interesting to see what the folks in this thread think a LN society would be like... Would it go to the same potentially self destructive extreme that is being described by some for CN? Would their lawfulness be so complete as to reject any hint of individuality, consideration of circumstances in enforcing the laws, etc? Would we assume something out of star trek where roving enforcers automaticly execute for any rule violation? Would the distinction between it and lawful evil boil down to whether the denzins celebrated the executions or acepted them as the way life is?

 

[boolean]

I noticed the following in the quoted text:

Each speaks common, any one elemental language and any one alignment language.

Did they bring back alignment languages somewhere? Or is the author referring to abyssal/celestial/infernal?

 

[Hussar]

You might want to check out China Mieville's Perdito Street Station. The Garuda are perfectly Chaotic Neutral. Their laws have nothing to do with how our laws work - everything is based on impinging on another's freedom. The greatest crime isn't murder, but, choice theft.

Since the Garuda have no real issues with deceiveing non Garuda, I'm thinking that would be an excellent source of inspiration.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

It might be interesting to see what the folks in this thread think a LN society would be like... Would it go to the same potentially self destructive extreme that is being described by some for CN? Would their lawfulness be so complete as to reject any hint of individuality, consideration of circumstances in enforcing the laws, etc? Would we assume something out of star trek where roving enforcers automaticly execute for any rule violation? Would the distinction between it and lawful evil boil down to whether the denzins celebrated the executions or acepted them as the way life is?

Well, if it ends up being as helpful as this one has been I think a LN society thread would be cool.

 

[Hussar]

LN societies, IMO, would place the rule of law ahead of everything. Laws would be in place to govern as much of society as possible and insure that everyone stayed in the place that they were supposed to. People would obey the laws, not because someone above them would punish them, but because obeying laws makes for a beneficial society. They would truly believe in the system.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

I started up an LN specific thread ("Formian's Advocate," har har ) so we can discuss.

 

[Celebrim]

It might be interesting to see what the folks in this thread think a LN society would be like... Would it go to the same potentially self destructive extreme that is being described by some for CN?

I think that CN 'societies' can really thrive. The biggest problem that they have is that without a moral center, when the society is put under pressure it comes to peices. CE societies don't thrive, but then again, they don't really care to. Thriving as a society is not thier goal, and indeed can be counterproductive to thier goals. So the biggest problem I see with CN is that its one step from the Abyss, pardon the pun.

Would their lawfulness be so complete as to reject any hint of individuality, consideration of circumstances in enforcing the laws, etc?

No. Again, no alignment assumes irrationality. Merely being lawful doesn't mean you have to have a Wisdom score of -6. Lawful societies are more prone to reject individuality, and they'll strongly reject certain types of individuality (deliberate attempts to undermine the society), but they don't reject the individual. They just place the needs of the society ahead of the individual on the grounds that they believe that no individual can thrive outside of society. They would see most claims of 'individuality' to be attempts to prey on the society in a parasitic fashion, enjoying its resources while contributing nothing back.

Would we assume something out of star trek where roving enforcers automaticly execute for any rule violation?

In some cases, although this is more likely to be an evil society than a merely lawful one if that's really the case. IMO, a good test on the good/evil axis is how you respond to the notion of 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' as a basis for justice. The original code was introduced to limit the scope of punishment. Evil societies tend to believe 'At least an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' The evil society believes that when insulted/afflicted, it is right and just and proper to payback with interest and meat hooks. Thus, 'A hand for a loaf of bread, a blow for a word, a life for a blow' tends to be its code of justice. The Neutral society tends to believe that punishment must be balanced, literally to 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' The good society tends to believe, emphasising mercy, 'At most an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' It holds that it is right and just and proper to refrain from paying back insults and afflications whenever it is possible, especially if they are affronts to your personal dignity and safety alone. (Affronts to the weak, innocent, or helpless is another matter.)

Would the distinction between it and lawful evil boil down to whether the denzins celebrated the executions or acepted them as the way life is?

In part.

I agree with Hussar that in most lawful societies, most individuals are happy to be a part of the community and willingly contribute to it. If you don't truly believe in the system, then you aren't lawful. Becoming a repressive police state is not the biggest danger a lawful society faces. Repressive police states tend to be instituted by chaotic evil types, because they are the ones that really need one. A lawful leader of a lawful community probably has few enemies within the community, especially if the community is homogeneous. I think that the biggest threat a lawful society faces is stagnation. When they have something that works, they are unwilling to change it. That's both a strength and a weakness (in the same way that a chaotic societies freedom is both its strength and its weakness). It's a strength because 'If its not broken, don't fix it' is a very rational attitude. It's a weakness because changing circumstance might cause a previously functional system to stop working, and its very hard to convince a lawful society (particularly a lawful neutral society) that there is any consideration (even utility) which is more important than the continuing observance of the law.

 

[boerngrim]

I agree with everything above except that I think N/N is probably more accurate. IMO unless a PC or NPC has a specific reason to be otherwise, they should, by default, be considered N/N.

Yes, I see your point. The true nuetral alignment does seem to fit the average "don't rock the boat" type person.

Yet I was thinking in terms of Chaotic in the sense of resisting the intrusion of authority into an individual's life. Commoners tend to keep to themselves to a point, yet resist either overtly or covertly any heavyhanded authority put in place over them. Just a thought.
Thanks.