5E Can you twin booming blade

Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
when twin spelling you dont get to use an additional action
Twinned Spell directly breaks the action economy. Booming Blade lets you attack as part of the casting.

D&D Rules base assumption is explicit trumps general. Twin Spell and Booming Blade are two examples of explicit trumping the general of action economy.

This isn't hard.
 

Ashrym

Hero
Twin removes the second "cast a spell" action normally used to cast the spell a second time. This includes the attack made as part of that action. This isn't that complicated.

I would argue green-flame blade can also be twinned because there is only one target. The secondary damage is a secondary effect after the target gets hit by the weapon attack and not actually two targets like acid splash.

"On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects, and green fire leaps from the target to a different creature of your choice that you can see within 5 feet of it. The second creature takes fire damage equal to your spellcasting ability modifier."

The target is pretty clear in green-flame blade.

A person could quicken and twin either of those cantrips on the same turn. 3 sorcery points is a pretty hefty investment to do it.
 

TheKing

Villager
Twinned Spell directly breaks the action economy. Booming Blade lets you attack as part of the casting.

This isn't hard.
Twinned spell is part of a specific spell action...

Now i Will simplify it to explain Why it you cant twin the melee of booming Bode

An action
When casting a spell you dont use your action unless the casting time is the same as an action... i hope we Can agree on this...?

When casting booming blade for it to work just one melee attack is needed - hope we Can agree on that?

Booming blade melee attack requires to be part of your action used regardless if its spell casting or whatever you wanna put it under... the melee attack still requires to be part of your action... we Can agree on this?

If we Can agree on these terms... its Per default from rules of mechanics impossible to twin the melee part.

That Said it doesnt stop the spell from being Twinned.

Also it Can be read on the Way you descripe where the attack is magical and some ghost sword hits the other target simultaniously (even though that wouldnt be a direct twin spell since you dont create some kind of ghost sword in the first place). Problem here is that the rules of magic attacks apply and is directly against the text of how the melee attack works within booming blade cause it would State its a regular effect and not magical. But if we Can twin cast the melee it has to be magical and Thereby magic effect has to apply according to the rules right? Or do you wanna avoid the rules of magic too?

Anyway in any case as of now untill Mr Crawford comments on the understanding it would be DM who rule how the understanding should be... DM chose what makes sense for him/her and everyone Else just gotta accept it Can be read and understood on different ways without anyone Can with complete evidence say one is better than the other
 

Ashrym

Hero
Twinned spell is part of a specific spell action...

Now i Will simplify it to explain Why it you cant twin the melee of booming Bode

An action
When casting a spell you dont use your action unless the casting time is the same as an action... i hope we Can agree on this...?

When casting booming blade for it to work just one melee attack is needed - hope we Can agree on that?

Booming blade melee attack requires to be part of your action used regardless if its spell casting or whatever you wanna put it under... the melee attack still requires to be part of your action... we Can agree on this?

If we Can agree on these terms... its Per default from rules of mechanics impossible to twin the melee part.

That Said it doesnt stop the spell from being Twinned.

Also it Can be read on the Way you descripe where the attack is magical and some ghost sword hits the other target simultaniously (even though that wouldnt be a direct twin spell since you dont create some kind of ghost sword in the first place). Problem here is that the rules of magic attacks apply and is directly against the text of how the melee attack works within booming blade cause it would State its a regular effect and not magical. But if we Can twin cast the melee it has to be magical and Thereby magic effect has to apply according to the rules right? Or do you wanna avoid the rules of magic too?

Anyway in any case as of now untill Mr Crawford comments on the understanding it would be DM who rule how the understanding should be... DM chose what makes sense for him/her and everyone Else just gotta accept it Can be read and understood on different ways without anyone Can with complete evidence say one is better than the other
That's incorrect and looks kind of condescending.

There is one action. It's casting a spell. The weapon attack is merely a part of that one action. Twin casts two spells using the same action. The weapon attacks are still merely a part of that one action that twin facilitated.

There's no extra part of an action required for the weapon attacks any more than adding any other extra VSM components. It's just part of the action already being taking.
 

Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
Anyway in any case as of now untill Mr Crawford comments on the understanding
He has. His response here

He just references the rules of Twinned Spell: "Twinned Spell test: can the spell affect only one creature at the spell's current level, and is its range not self? If yes, TS works."

Ergo, you can Twin Booming Blade. No caveats on it.

You twin it. You make two attacks as part of the twinning.
 

TheKing

Villager
That's incorrect and looks kind of condescending.

There is one action. It's casting a spell. The weapon attack is merely a part of that one action. Twin casts two spells using the same action. The weapon attacks are still merely a part of that one action that twin facilitated.

There's no extra part of an action required for the weapon attacks any more than adding any other extra VSM components. It's just part of the action already being taking.
You are so wrong.

The melee part according to sages compendium is not part of the magic regardless if the magic forces you to do so

The twin spell only affect spells

Booming Blade consist of two fases melee attack and spell attack

The melee is Per written rules not part of the spell and is not Twinned.

If you disagree please provide evidence tjat backs it.

Attached is documentation stating what injudt Said is true.
 

Attachments

TheKing

Villager
He has. His response here

He just references the rules of Twinned Spell: "Twinned Spell test: can the spell affect only one creature at the spell's current level, and is its range not self? If yes, TS works."

Ergo, you can Twin Booming Blade. No caveats on it.

You twin it. You make two attacks as part of the twinning.
Noone never Said it couldnt be Twinned - the discussion is if the melee part is Twinned or not - the spell attack is Twinned noone disagree on that cause we all know Crawford confirmed that - Eg. The link you provided.
 

cbwjm

I can add a custom title.
You are so wrong.

The melee part according to sages compendium is not part of the magic regardless if the magic forces you to do so

The twin spell only affect spells

Booming Blade consist of two fases melee attack and spell attack

The melee is Per written rules not part of the spell and is not Twinned.

If you disagree please provide evidence tjat backs it.

Attached is documentation stating what injudt Said is true.
Nothing you just posted contradicts that you can twin booming blade. The first image just tells you which ability modifier to apply to an attack, it has nothing to do with twinning booming blade which you can as it is a spell that only has a single target and doesn't have a range of self.
 

cbwjm

I can add a custom title.
Noone never Said it couldnt be Twinned - the discussion is if the melee part is Twinned or not - the spell attack is Twinned noone disagree on that cause we all know Crawford confirmed that - Eg. The link you provided.
The melee part is part of the spell, if you twin it, you need to perform the melee part again. Otherwise the spell fails. Would you also make a single attack roll with a twinned fire bolt? If the answer is no, then you also wouldn't make a single melee attack with a twinned booming blade.
 

TheKing

Villager
Nothing you just posted contradicts that you can twin booming blade. The first image just tells you which ability modifier to apply to an attack, it has nothing to do with twinning booming blade which you can as it is a spell that only has a single target and doesn't have a range of self.
I never Said you couldnt twin the spell of boomingblade...

I just say you cant twin the melee part, well more likely i say it Can be read on two ways that you cant and that you Can depending on how you want to understand the content.

And if you dont agree on that then lets just agree to disagree on how to read the written words
 

Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
I just say you cant twin the melee part,
To this I reply with this:

Would you also make a single attack roll with a twinned fire bolt? If the answer is no, then you also wouldn't make a single melee attack with a twinned booming blade.
Twin gives you the full mechanics of the spell. Booming Blades mechanics include making a melee attack.
 

TheKing

Villager
To this I reply with this:



Twin gives you the full mechanics of the spell. Booming Blades mechanics include making a melee attack.
Thats one Way of Reading it, but you cant be objective in this discussion so lets just Call it. You have narrowed it Down to what you believe, and i dont say you are wrong i just say that it Can also be read directly differently amd that Crawford havent commented on that part about the melee.

Again i say that its the DM who decide how he/she reads it, at least untill Crawford tell how it should be understood.
 

Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
Again i say that its the DM who decide how he/she reads it, at least untill Crawford tell how it should be understood.
I already pointed you to the quote from Crawford.

He wouldn't say you can twin it without letting you do the full effects of the spell. That would be pointless.
 

TheKing

Villager
I already pointed you to the quote from Crawford.

He wouldn't say you can twin it without letting you do the full effects of the spell. That would be pointless.
I know this qoute and i also refered to it earlier about him stating that the twin mechanism would work. That doesnt mean the non magic melee is Twinned.

Please try and find me any other example of any possible spell that Can be Twinned where it is twinning something that doesnt have directly text in irs description descriping Its magic... booming blade is of ny knowledge the only possible cantrip/spell that Can be Twinned which has element of non magic in it... this is Why discussion about it is active and still ongoing... i could be wrong and missed something, if i did then i say sorry and rest my case and give you 100% right.
 

Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
You can't segregate the spell into components like that.

Firebolt: Make a ranged spell attack against the target.
Shocking Grasp: Make a melee spell attack against the target
Booming Blade: As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell’s range, otherwise the spell fails.

So instead of making a ranged spell attack or a melee spell attack, you make a melee weapon attack. They are the same, thing.
 

TheKing

Villager
You can't segregate the spell into components like that.

Firebolt: Make a ranged spell attack against the target.
Shocking Grasp: Make a melee spell attack against the target
Booming Blade: As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell’s range, otherwise the spell fails.

So instead of making a ranged spell attack or a melee spell attack, you make a melee weapon attack. They are the same, thing.
No not the same - find me an example where you Can twin something that is not spell... the other example you mention are directly texted as spells... if you Can find me one example where you Can twin something that is not texted as being spell then i say you are right - untill then its more likely that you are wrong
 

Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
No not the same - find me an example where you Can twin something that is not spell... the other example you mention are directly texted as spells... if you Can find me one example where you Can twin something that is not texted as being spell then i say you are right - untill then its more likely that you are wrong
You can only Twin a spell. Booming blade lets you make a melee attack rather than a spell attack. Just like spell attacks get twinned, the melee attack gets twinned.
 

Ashrym

Hero
No not the same - find me an example where you Can twin something that is not spell... the other example you mention are directly texted as spells... if you Can find me one example where you Can twin something that is not texted as being spell then i say you are right - untill then its more likely that you are wrong

The melee attack is part of the spell being twinned. There is still no other action being taken.
 

Harzel

Adventurer
Twinned spell is part of a specific spell action...

Now i Will simplify it to explain Why it you cant twin the melee of booming Bode

An action
When casting a spell you dont use your action unless the casting time is the same as an action... i hope we Can agree on this...?
Yes.

When casting booming blade for it to work just one melee attack is needed - hope we Can agree on that?
Normally, yes. But Twinned Spell changes how spells work, or at least that is one way to read it. The description of Twinned Spell says that you get to "target a second creature in range with the same spell." In my previous post, I asserted that the way to read this is that Twinned Spell causes the single casting of the spell to target two creatures. In this case, the only reasonable thing to do is to extend the spell in the most straightforward way to accommodate targeting two creatures. In the case of Booming Blade, this would be to make a melee attack on each of the two creatures.

However, on reflection, I think it is better to read Twinned Spell as effectively allowing you to cast the spell twice with the same action, targeting two different creatures. Not only is this more consistent with the name "Twinned Spell", but it also makes the interpretation much easier since you leave the spell description itself unchanged.

Using this reading, I can agree with you - each casting of Booming Blade requires just one melee attack. But applying Twinned Spell essentially causes you to cast the spell twice with the same casting action, so you will end up making two melee attacks - one for each casting.

Booming blade melee attack requires to be part of your action used regardless if its spell casting or whatever you wanna put it under... the melee attack still requires to be part of your action... we Can agree on this?
Yes.

If we Can agree on these terms... its Per default from rules of mechanics impossible to twin the melee part.
As much as I appreciate your effort in trying to explain your opinion on this, I'm sorry, but I don't understand which 'rules of mechanics' are you referring to? If you could cite a specific passage in the PH or Basic Rules or other source, that would be very helpful in understanding what you are talking about.

If, though, your argument still comes down to the assertion that two melee attacks cannot be part of the same action, that's just not correct. As I noted previously, there are plenty of examples in which multiple melee attacks result from a single action.

That Said it doesnt stop the spell from being Twinned.

Also it Can be read on the Way you descripe where the attack is magical and some ghost sword hits the other target simultaniously (even though that wouldnt be a direct twin spell since you dont create some kind of ghost sword in the first place). Problem here is that the rules of magic attacks apply and is directly against the text of how the melee attack works within booming blade cause it would State its a regular effect and not magical. But if we Can twin cast the melee it has to be magical and Thereby magic effect has to apply according to the rules right? Or do you wanna avoid the rules of magic too?
Again, what rules are you referring to? And why do you think they conflict with the Booming Blade spell description?

EDIT: Oops, this is now redundant with what others have said already.
 

Harzel

Adventurer
No not the same - find me an example where you Can twin something that is not spell... the other example you mention are directly texted as spells... if you Can find me one example where you Can twin something that is not texted as being spell then i say you are right - untill then its more likely that you are wrong
I'm not sure repeating this will have any additional effect, but (beyond it being able to be Twinned) the details of the spell just don't matter. Using Twinned Spell is just the same as casting the spell twice, so all the procedures and effects of the spell occur twice.
 

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