Can you use sensing eye to determine the sight of sensing eye?

[Stalker0]

The sensing eye cantrip says you can determine a space 5 squares away from you (that you can see) that you can then determine line of sight from.

Since its a minor action, I can use it multiple times a round. Could I cast it again, and pick a square that I can now see using the sensing eye power?

 

[Mummolus]

No, because the power specifies "...that is within five squares of you".

Determining line of sight from a square does not mean you occupy the square, so the range limit is not circumvented.

Edit: Although I suppose you might be able to use it to look around a double corner or some such, so long as the target square is within five of your character.
Edit2: Which I now realize is probably what you were asking in the first place. My apologies.

 

[Chris Knapp]

No, because the power specifies "...that is within five squares of you".

Determining line of sight from a square does not mean you occupy the square, so the range limit is not circumvented.

Edit: Although I suppose you might be able to use it to look around a double corner or some such, so long as the target square is within five of your character.

It doesn't say you actually see anything more than you already do, just that your square for determining LOS changes.

 

[Mummolus]

It doesn't say you actually see anything more than you already do, just that your square for determining LOS changes.

Right, but in the following situation (for example) that would allow a PC to see things around a corner.

(Where x is the PC, # is impassable wall and 1,2,3 are the casts of Sensing Eye)

_______
|1 _ 2|
| |#| |
|x|#| |
| |#| |
| |#|3|
| |#| |
| |#| |

 

[Stalker0]

Yeah the two ways I was thinking of using it was around the corner as you mentioned, and the other was on a second story floor (use the first use at a second story window and then the second to look deeper inside the room.

 

[Infiniti2000]

This sounds neat, but keep in mind that in the example from Mummolus the 3 is too far from x. You don't count squares through the wall, or floor. So, a range of 5 is very limited for seeing around corners. I think the #2 space is okay regarding range.

Also, the bigger question is whether you can now determine LOS from any of the squares (i.e. yours, 1, and 2). I think so as the wording in the power doesn't "overwrite" the previous casting and there's no inherent limit on powers like that.

 

[Mr. Teapot]

You guys are all getting line of sight confused with line of effect. Line of Sight determines if you can see a target square, but you need line of effect to actually target your power somewhere. Think about a ranger firing a bow into a stinking cloud: the cloud blocks sight, but not effect. So he can fire and hope to hit something, even though he can't see what he's targeting. He has LoE but no LoS.

That's what Sensing Eye is useful for. It changes where LoS is, but it doesn't change anything about LoE. So it only changes what squares get concealment/total concealment. It doesn't change what squares you can target, at all. That goes for when using Sensing Eye as well: the square the Eye appears in has to be within 5 squares of you and have a clear, unbroken line of effect between you and it. Using Sensing Eye won't let you target Sensing Eye (or most other powers) in any square you couldn't target already.


The big exception to those rules is teleportation. Teleports require LoS but not LoE, so you can teleport through windows and walls of force (LoS, no LoE), but not through clouds of gas, illusory walls or darkness (LoE but no LoS). Sensing Eye would help a teleporting eladrin get around corners or into the third story of a building, since then the eladrin would have LoS where they want to go.

 

[Stalker0]

You guys are all getting line of sight confused with line of effect. Line of Sight determines if you can see a target square, but you need line of effect to actually target your power somewhere. Think about a ranger firing a bow into a stinking cloud: the cloud blocks sight, but not effect. So he can fire and hope to hit something, even though he can't see what he's targeting. He has LoE but no LoS.

That's what Sensing Eye is useful for. It changes where LoS is, but it doesn't change anything about LoE. So it only changes what squares get concealment/total concealment. It doesn't change what squares you can target, at all. That goes for when using Sensing Eye as well: the square the Eye appears in has to be within 5 squares of you and have a clear, unbroken line of effect between you and it. Using Sensing Eye won't let you target Sensing Eye (or most other powers) in any square you couldn't target already.


The big exception to those rules is teleportation. Teleports require LoS but not LoE, so you can teleport through windows and walls of force (LoS, no LoE), but not through clouds of gas, illusory walls or darkness (LoE but no LoS). Sensing Eye would help a teleporting eladrin get around corners or into the third story of a building, since then the eladrin would have LoS where they want to go.

Taking another look, I think Mr. Teapot is right. Line of Effect says that unless the power specifically states you don't need line of effect, then you must have it to place an effect.

Teleportation has a specific clause that says line of effect is not required. Since sensing eye does not have such a clause, I would assume line of effect is still required.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Not so fast. It's a Personal effect. The power definitely works on you. The effect is then only line of sight. Anything about line of effect only matters if the power is not Personal.

 

[Mr. Teapot]

It's true that the power is personal. And Personal powers have less clearly defined mechanics than other powers ("Personal" doesn't appear in the glossary, for example.)

But the general rule is that a power needs line of effect to affect a square or something in that square. Teleportation powers have a specific exception, even though many of those are Personal powers. Sensing Eye doesn't, so I don't think it avoids the general rule.

I can see room for disagreement, though. Personal powers aren't well defined, especially those that can affect spaces outside your own. (If it were a Close or ranged power, things would be clearer.)