can you weapon finesse a two handed double weapon?

[Hypersmurf]

Good point. I suppose this is a case where the general rule is followed except when contradicted by an exception.

And Two-Handed Weapons are an exception - they add 1.5x Str bonus to damage.

Including the bit about a one-armed guy holding a greatsword (or other large/two-handed weapon) only getting 1xStr bonus.

The one-armed guy can't use a greatsword.

But if he's mounted, he could use a lance.

In fact, the exception proves the rule--the exception wouldn't have to be there unless getting 1.5xStr bonus is purely a function of how many hands are used to wield the weapon.

The 1.5x Str bonus can result from using two hands, or from using a two-handed weapon. The exception to the 1.5x Str bonus for using two hands is if the weapon is light.

-Hyp.

 

[Zaruthustran]

And Two-Handed Weapons are an exception - they add 1.5x Str bonus to damage.

No, they're not an exception at all. Weapons used with two hands, such as two-handed weapons, are just covered by the rule for Strength: "two-handed attacks receive one and a half times the Strength bonus."

The one-armed guy can't use a greatsword.

I was thinking of monkey grip, but on second thought let's not go there.

But if he's mounted, he could use a lance.

Sure he could. A weapon wielded in one hand, like a mounted guy with a lance, gets 1xstr bonus to damage.

The 1.5x Str bonus can result from using two hands, or from using a two-handed weapon.

I disagree. I think the entry for two-handed weapons merely assumes that the wielder is using two hands, and that's why it repeats the 1.5xstr bonus rule. Getting 1.5 str bonus to damage is not a property of the weapon itself.

Otherwise, what is the rationale for the extra multiplier? That the weapon is heavy? That's already factored into the base damage. And why would the designers create two rules (1.5 from using two hands, and 1.5 from a weapon of relative size = "two-handed") with the same effect?

Are you suggesting that a two-handed weapon wielded with two hands gets (1.5 + 1.5) 3.0xStr damage?

The exception to the 1.5x Str bonus for using two hands is if the weapon is light.
-Hyp.

I agree. For such a weapon "the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder’s primary hand only." Note it doesn't say "the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were a one-handed weapon."

Number of hands used to wield a weapon is what determines whether the bonus is 1x or 1.5x Str mod, with the exception of light weapons.

-z

 

[Hypersmurf]

No, they're not an exception at all. Weapons used with two hands, such as two-handed weapons, are just covered by the rule for Strength: "two-handed attacks receive one and a half times the Strength bonus."

Weapons used with two hands are covered by the rules for Strength. Two-handed weapons are covered by the rules for two-handed weapons.

I was thinking of monkey grip, but on second thought let's not go there.

No, let's.

A Medium creature wielding a Medium longsword is using a one-handed weapon, and can wield it in one hand (1x Str bonus) or two hands (1.5x Str bonus).

A Medium creature wielding a Large longsword is using a two-handed weapon (1.5x Str bonus), and requires two hands to wield it.

A Medium creature with Monkey Grip wielding a Large longsword is using a one-handed weapon, and can wield it in one hand (1x Str bonus) or two hands (1.5x Str bonus).

The feat causes the Large longsword to be considered a one-handed weapon, not a two-handed weapon, so he only adds his normal Str bonus if he uses it in one hand.

Sure he could. A weapon wielded in one hand, like a mounted guy with a lance, gets 1xstr bonus to damage.

It's a two-handed weapon.

I disagree. I think the entry for two-handed weapons merely assumes that the wielder is using two hands, and that's why it repeats the 1.5xstr bonus rule. Getting 1.5 str bonus to damage is not a property of the weapon itself.

It states that it is. "Apply 1½ times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

Otherwise, what is the rationale for the extra multiplier?

Because it's what the rules say.

That's already factored into the base damage. And why would the designers create two rules (1.5 from using two hands, and 1.5 from a weapon of relative size = "two-handed") with the same effect?

They don't have the same effect. A longsword used in two hands gains no benefit from the two-handed weapon rule. A lance used in one hand gains no benefit from the wielded in two hands rule. The rules have different effects.

Are you suggesting that a two-handed weapon wielded with two hands gets (1.5 + 1.5) 3.0xStr damage?

No, I'm suggesting it gets 1.5x Str bonus to damage, for two different reasons.

Just like someone who is flat-footed and blind is denied his Dex bonus once, for two different reasons.

I agree. For such a weapon "the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder’s primary hand only." Note it doesn't say "the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were a one-handed weapon."

Of course not. It applies as though the weapon were a light weapon (since nothing about the rule changes that) wielded in his primary hand. A light weapon wielded in your primary hand adds 1x Str bonus.

Number of hands used to wield a weapon is what determines whether the bonus is 1x or 1.5x Str mod, with the exception of light weapons.

... and two-handed weapons, per the description.

-Hyp.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

A quarterstaff is a two handed weapon, yes?

In it's entry, it has an example of a creature using it in one hand. In fact, that same sentence is written in each double weapon entry.
They are all two handed weapons as well.
So by your logic, they'd all get 1.5xSTR when used in one hand?

Oh, and nothing prevents you from using a bastard sword in one hand, you just take the -4 for using it in a way in which you are not proficient. Check the glossary, under exotic weapon, which is not part of the SRD, but is useful nonetheless.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Weapons used with two hands are covered by the rules for Strength. Two-handed weapons are covered by the rules for two-handed weapons.

This is the source of the disagreement. The rules for two-handed weapons reference the rules for strength, specifically in how to apply the strength bonus. You consider the repetition in the description of two-handed weapons as a new source of rules. I consider them a summary of existing rules.

No, let's.

A Medium creature with Monkey Grip wielding a Large longsword is using a one-handed weapon, and can wield it in one hand (1x Str bonus) or two hands (1.5x Str bonus).

The feat causes the Large longsword to be considered a one-handed weapon, not a two-handed weapon, so he only adds his normal Str bonus if he uses it in one hand.

Monkey grip: "You may use some weapons one size category larger than normal in exchange for a –2 penalty on attacks. A Medium-sized character could use a Large-sized Longsword as a One-Handed Weapon."

A large-sized longsword is objectively a two-handed weapon, so according to the rules for weapon sizes it's the same size as a greatsword. So instead of a large-sized longsword, let's use a normal greatsword--less confusing.

Though Monkey Grip allows the greatsword to be used as a one-handed weapon, it's still a two-handed weapon--that's where "greatsword" appears in the weapons table. It only gets 1x str damage because it's wielded in one hand. If your interpretation is correct, it'd get 1.5xstr even if wielded in one because it is still a two-handed weapon.

[a lance is] a two-handed weapon.

It's a two-handed weapon wielded in one hand. Weapons wielded in one hand get 1xstr bonus. A Lance is an exception to the usual rules; that's why the text "While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand" exists.

The rule for strength says "two-handed attacks receive one and a half times the Strength bonus." A lance wielded in one hand (such as when mounted) is not a "two-handed attack." So it gets 1xstr bonus.

It states that it is. "Apply 1½ times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

That's just repeating the rule from Strength; the text assumes that a person wielding a two-handed weapon is using it with two hands. As you pointed out, how otherwise could a person wield such a weapon?

They don't have the same effect. A longsword used in two hands gains no benefit from the two-handed weapon rule. A lance used in one hand gains no benefit from the wielded in two hands rule. The rules have different effects.

There's just the one rule, under "Strength".

The entry for "one-handed" says "If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls."

It does not say "If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, treat it as a two-handed weapon".

Instead, it just references the rule for Strength. And so does the entry for two-handed weapons.

No, I'm suggesting it gets 1.5x Str bonus to damage, for two different reasons.

Just like someone who is flat-footed and blind is denied his Dex bonus once, for two different reasons.

Poor comparison; you can only deny something once.

If there really are separate rules, a person wielding a greatsword can add:

1. 1.5xstr bonus while making a two handed attack. Source: Strength rule.
2. 1.5xstr bonus for using a two-handed weapon. Source: Two-handed weapon rule.

If you believe they are distinct and separate rules--that str bonus to damage is determined by both number of hands used, *and* size of weapon used--you must add both bonuses to a two-handed attack with a two-handed weapon.

And that's silly.

Much more reasonable that the rules for weapon size/effort needed to wield a weapon (the description of light, one-handed, and two-handed) are just referencing the rules from Strength, not creating new rules.

Much more reasonable to assume that the rules for applying Strength bonus are found in the ability score chapter, not the equipment chapter.

-z

 

[Hypersmurf]

A quarterstaff is a two handed weapon, yes?

In it's entry, it has an example of a creature using it in one hand. In fact, that same sentence is written in each double weapon entry.
They are all two handed weapons as well.
So by your logic, they'd all get 1.5xSTR when used in one hand?

A Medium creature cannot use a Medium quarterstaff in one hand; it requires two hands to wield.

A Large creature can use a Medium quarterstaff in one hand; for him, it is considered a one-handed weapon. If he does so, the line you mentioned comes into effect - a creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can only use one end of it in a given round.

This is not permission for a Medium creature to wield a Medium quarterstaff in one hand; he cannot, it is a two-handed weapon. This describes what happens in a case when a creature can wield a double weapon in one hand and does so. (In 3E it was clearer, because essentially all weapons were assumed to be designed for a Medium creature; the example was an ogre wielding a two-bladed sword in one hand. In 3.5, where weapons can be of any size, they've left the example generic, so it's not as obvious.)

Since for the Large creature, the Medium quarterstaff is a one-handed weapon, he does not gain 1.5x Str bonus to damage when wielding it in one hand... per the rules for one-handed weapons.

Oh, and nothing prevents you from using a bastard sword in one hand, you just take the -4 for using it in a way in which you are not proficient.

I disagree.

A bastard sword is too large to use in one hand without special training.

If you don't have the special training, the sword is too large to use in one hand. You don't incur a penalty; you simply can't use it.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

A large-sized longsword is objectively a two-handed weapon, so according to the rules for weapon sizes it's the same size as a greatsword. So instead of a large-sized longsword, let's use a normal greatsword--less confusing.

You can't. Monkey Grip does not allow a Medium creature to wield a Medium two-handed weapon in one hand. It allows him to wield a Large one-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon, or a Large two-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon, or a Large light weapon as a light weapon. Monkey Grip has no applicability to weapons that are not designed for a creature one size category larger than you.

Though Monkey Grip allows the greatsword to be used as a one-handed weapon...

No, it doesn't.

It's a two-handed weapon wielded in one hand.

Exactly.

Weapons wielded in one hand get 1xstr bonus.

Unless they're two-handed weapons.

The rule for strength says "two-handed attacks receive one and a half times the Strength bonus." A lance wielded in one hand (such as when mounted) is not a "two-handed attack." So it gets 1xstr bonus.

The rule for two-handed weapons state "Apply 1½ times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon."

A lance wielded in one hand (such as when mounted) is a two-handed weapon. So it gets 1½x Str bonus.

That's just repeating the rule from Strength; the text assumes that a person wielding a two-handed weapon is using it with two hands. As you pointed out, how otherwise could a person wield such a weapon?

In one hand, if it's a lance used while mounted, obviously.

The entry for "one-handed" says "If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls."

It does not say "If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, treat it as a two-handed weapon".

Why would it say "Treat it as a two-handed weapon"? That has other effects, such as giving a +4 bonus to Sunder and Disarm attempts.

All they want to effect is the Str bonus, so that's what the rule says.

If you believe they are distinct and separate rules--that str bonus to damage is determined by both number of hands used, *and* size of weapon used--you must add both bonuses to a two-handed attack with a two-handed weapon.

If you don't like the Dex bonus analogy, how about attempting a Disarm with an unarmed strike?

You provoke one AoO for two reasons - you are attempting a Disarm, and you are attacking with an unarmed strike. Either reason would suffice, but it's still only a single AoO despite the two reasons.

Much more reasonable to assume that the rules for applying Strength bonus are found in the ability score chapter, not the equipment chapter.

In which case we're back to 1.5x Str bonus with light weapons, since the rule forbidding it isn't found in the ability score chapter.

-Hyp.

 

[Zaruthustran]

A bastard sword is too large to use in one hand without special training.

If you don't have the special training, the sword is too large to use in one hand. You don't incur a penalty; you simply can't use it.

-Hyp.

I agree. If you have the EWP feat, you can use it in one hand. If you don't, you have to use two hands as a martial two-handed weapon. There's no option to use a bastard sword in one hand if you don't have the feat (or monkey grip).

-z

 

[Zaruthustran]

In which case we're back to 1.5x Str bonus with light weapons, since the rule forbidding it isn't found in the ability score chapter.

-Hyp.

This is the crux. Exceptions to general rules exist throughout the ruleset, and they're cited where needed. In this case light weapons create an exception, and the appropriate rule is created and references the general Str rule (str bonus applies to one-handed attacks).

The other classifications of effort needed to wield a weapon (one-handed, two-handed) simply reference the general str rule. They don't have any exceptions to that rule, so there's no need to create new rules.

-z

 

[Hypersmurf]

I agree. If you have the EWP feat, you can use it in one hand. If you don't, you have to use two hands as a martial two-handed weapon. There's no option to use a bastard sword in one hand if you don't have the feat (or monkey grip).

Well, Monkey Grip wouldn't apply unless the sword were designed for a creature one size category larger.

And I disagree that you have to use two hands as a martial two-handed weapon; nothing changes it from being a one-handed weapon to a two-handed weapon, it simply changes from being an exotic weapon to a martial weapon. But you can only use it two-handed.

So you have to use two hands as a martial one-handed weapon.

(No bonus to Disarm or Sunder, for example.)

-Hyp.