D&D 5E cancelled 5e announcement at Gencon??? Anyone know anything about this?

TheAuldGrump

First Post
I think I posted something similar to this upthread. To cure the 15-minute adventuring day by raising the stakes presupposes that the players (i) care about the stakes, and (ii) have the mechanical capacity to respond.

But if (i) obtains, then as VB points out problems arise - if the players really are invested in saving the princess, are you as GM really going to kill her offscreen in order to "punish" your players for nova-ing their spellcasters? In a certain sort of sandbox approach, that might be tenable. But there are a number of other approaches for which it is not - for which there is an expectation that, if the players care about it, then their PCs will be part of it.
Yes, I would kill her off screen. Sandbox or no sandbox.

Solutions that I have seen players come up with is that the wizard rests and prepares while the rest of the group continues on, rejoining when prepared.

Not as much fun as joining in the antics, but possible, so the players have done it when needed, but are much more likely to save their spells instead.

I am less likely to kill the princess 'on screen' when the other players are keeping an eye on things, waiting to step in if needed. Though not always... if the ceremony has to be performed at Midnight then the ceremony will be at Midnight. The wizard should have planned better.

If I feel that the players were counting on my generosity when the wizard decided to use up all his spells... stabbity. If the wizard used up lots of spells in a battle that was fierce, ferocious, and could have swung either way... then I am more forgiving. But, typically, such encounters tend to be well after the 15 minute mark, when spells are partially used and HP are at less than full.

Think of it as the Diehard Effect.


Die Hard Effect by TheAuldGrump, on Flickr

I am willing to stretch things if the players are giving it their all, not if they want to saunter their way to victory.

The Auld Grump
 

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Mournblade94

Adventurer
&D play.

But in 3E even low level casters can easily make wands and scrolls. Wands will tend to ensure they don't run out of spells. And scrolls will tend to ensure that they have ready access to a much wider range of spells than those memorised.

Does either of you use any particular techniques to control the proliferation of wands and scrolls in your games?

It really depended on the adventure. First of all, not every mage that played in my game took item creation feats. Clerics almost never did. Even when they do, there is treasure as a limiting factor. Mages needed the funds to scribe spells in spellbooks, create items, buy items, it was a drag on their finances. Where the fighter could save up for his +4 sword, the mages funds could be taxed if he did nothing but create wands.

The wand problem can be a serious problem, but again I seem to maintain that control somehow. Very few of the games I ran in store were long campaigns, so there the item creation is not much of an issue. My home games tended to be multiyear campaigns, but I had nobody abuse the item creation feats.

If I was playing a mage I would not want to tax my resources on knock scrolls when I had a friend in the party that could pick locks.
 

Hussar's been holding onto that tightly for years. He hears what he wants to hear and ignores everything else.

The only thing you need in order for the 15MAD/early-onset-LFQW not to be a problem is a mildly reactive world which isn't put on PAUSE whenever the players aren't looking at it.

Adventures with imposed time-based deadlines are one way to achieve a reactive world, but other methods include: (snip long list of other options)
I mean, sure, having time pressure makes for good adventures. No argument here. But, if every adventure must have these pressures and the only reason for that is to counter the mechanics, then aren't the mechanics dictating a single way of playing?

This was so absurd I almost assumed you were intentionally engaging in self-parody. But then the smiley face never came.

I rest my case: Hussar hears what he wants to hear. He ignores everything else. Anyone who thinks they can actually have a discussion with him on this topic is deluding themselves.

Beginning of the End has ended ~ Plane Sailing
 
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gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
Regarding endlessly putting time pressures, threats preventing rests and other encounter pacing (guaranteed multiple encounters within the hour) techniques that teach a wizard not to Nova - if that is what you are trying to do as a GM to alter this effect...

Some of your arguments is that if this happens constantly, then the situation becomes contrived. Of course that is true. However, once the wizard learns not to Nova, then you don't have to constantly put time pressures, etc into the game, the wizard doesn't Nova anymore, so no problem anymore.

Periodically change the pace and introduce new pressure threats as it best fits the storyline, but don't make it a constant thing - variety makes things interesting.

Once the wizard learns that it is to the benefit of the party to pace his spellcasting to most appropriate incidents as they come to play, and save some of his combat and utility magic to pace with combat and with the varying encounters - the Nova problem no longer exists, disparity lessens; problem solved.
 


pemerton

Legend
Once the wizard learns that it is to the benefit of the party to pace his spellcasting to most appropriate incidents as they come to play, and save some of his combat and utility magic to pace with combat and with the varying encounters - the Nova problem no longer exists, disparity lessens; problem solved.
Sure - if you want this sort of play experience.

Another option, obviously, is to change the way wizard PCs resources work, so that nova/rest is no longer a mechanical option.

I don't see any reason to think that either approach is inherently more suitable for a fantasy RPG, or that either approach is inherently "narrow" or "simplistic" compared to the other.
 

Pentius

First Post
All in all, I think I'd be more forgiving if the 3.5 dmg warned Dms about the 15mwd, but it just doesn't. I turn to the part about adventure building, and the closest it gets is two lines.

"•Multiple combat encounters are more difficult to win without a
fighter, a barbarian, a ranger, or a paladin in the party.
•Multiple combat encounters are more difficult to survive with-
out a cleric in the party." -3.5 DMG, page 50.

That kinda almost addresses the issue, but not really. Before that, the DMG talks about static, site-based adventures, saying:

"Sometimes a site-based adventure takes place at a static location.
The map depicts an old ruin filled with monsters, shows where
the ancient treasures are located within the ruin, where the traps
or danger spots are located, and so on. The PCs can arrive at this
location at any time, stay as long as they desire, leave whenever
they want, and come back later to find the site pretty much the
same as they left it (although more monsters may have taken up
residence, or a few may have wandered off; maybe a trap has been
triggered by a monster and no longer threatens the PCs, or a trap
the PCs previously triggered has been reset).
Designing a static site-based adventure is fairly easy. You don’t
have to think much about how the residents of the various encounter
areas interact, and each encounter area need only be designed with
the most immediate implications in mind—namely,
what happens when the PCs arrive?"
~3.5 DMG, page 47.

This is presented as an equal option to time-pressured adventures. There's no real advice about the differing power of casters in each type of adventure. Each individual DM is left to a trial by fire. Some pass, and either have no issue with the 15mwd, or learn to avoid it. Some just don't.
 

[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]

You responded with two interesting points that I wanted to address.

1. I was somewhat presupposing combat and roleplaying were not entirely overlapping (I wouldn't go so far as to say exclusive though). I think I still do. There is certainly some roleplaying in combat. In more interesting storylines there's even more (like when a villain switches sides or a pc decides to provide mercy, etc etc). However, I think that most of the richer roleplaying happens out of combat.

In my experience combat causes three things to occur that inhibit roleplaying (not attacking 4e here, this is from my 2e and 3e experience mainly):
a.) Focus on powers/abilities/numbers like hp, etc...Focus on the rules.
b.) Turn based play.
c.) Lack of meaningful character decisions.

a.) Focus on the rules is an effective way to engage in combat, and being effective in the life or death component of a game is rewarded by virtue of not losing. I've observed my players shift from roleplaying in an immersive sense to strategic gaming where they are moving pieces, calculating strategy, moving in absurd ways to avoid attacks of opportunity, etc. I don't blame them. That's not to say this happens every combat or even throughout an entire combat. But it does happen. It does not happen when they are chatting with the local lord or arguing for their lives at a trial.

b.) Turn based play. This one's really simple. Out of combat people feel more simultaneously engaged. They can act at any point in the "round" and, in fact, there may not be "rounds" per se. In combat, most of the time, the only meaningful actions are interrupts and those you take on your turn. Beyond that it's merely shouting a word or two here and there. Again, not always. Sometimes a player might engage in some lengthy roleplaying in combat, even while others are rolling, but this is more the exception than the rule.

c.) Lack of meaningful character decisions. Of course the decisions you make in combat affect life and death. That's not what I'm referring to here. I'm referring to character decisions. Give two players the exact same character sheet, but with totally different backstories and personalities. In combat, assuming they have similar strategies, you won't really notice a difference. Out of combat, you will see them make a number of very different decisions on how to approach NPCs, problems, what to do, where to go, etc.



2.) How would I fix it?

The thing I probably like least in gaming is when there is a "combat mode" and a "noncombat mode". I hate the idea of "encounter powers", and I don't think 4e did enough to get rid of dailies. I'd do two things to reduce both the nova and the fighter/wizard disparity.

a.) Get rid of "dailies". I've never liked them. I was perfectly happy playing 3e warlocks and binders to get my "magic" on. This is not to say that there can't be buildup or "big powers" for exciting, nova like moments. 4e does this nicely with action points. Resting actually can eliminate these, while pushing on grants more. I don't like that you can only use one per combat (that fits with my dislike of "combat mode"). Wizard spellcasting could use a more mana driven resource similar to these, and all classes could benefit from them to a degree, as they do now in 4e, but perhaps in different ways.

b.) Give everyone cool things to do out of combat. Note this is the opposite of what 4e has done, which is to somewhat strip out of combat for all classes, and give fighters more interesting things to do in combat. I'll agree that in 3e fighters had little on their sheets that made them cool in or out of combat, while wizards had plenty for both.

If I were designing 5e, I'd start watching movies. What cool things do "fighters" do in regards to noncombat roleplaying? I'd give fighters more skill points for things like intimidate, give them a reason to put points in charisma (because what movie action hero has a low charisma?), and in general provide a focus on awesome stuff out of combat. But these out of combat things would be useful/usable in combat on occasion as well (just like a wizard casting feather fall or hold portal).

Off the top of my head, a short list of fighter abilities, and the source:

John McClane (Die Hard): Intuition. He stays ahead of the bad guys, and he generally wins by figuring them out, even though outnumbered. This is also great in roleplaying senses. Is someone lying? Where are the bad guys likely to go next?

Doc Holliday (Tombstone): Gambling. Not just with cards, but with his own life, and taking risks in all sorts of social situations. Perhaps a luck meter or luck based powers would be appropriate here.

Ash (Army of Darkness): Inventiveness. His hand went bad. So he cut it off. Naturally. That was from the Evil Deads. In AoD he fashions a pneumatic metal hand. He uses high school chemistry to make bombs. He and the smith work to trick out his car into a helicopter death machine. Here the power would be some sort of science based or alchemy based abilites. But he's not awesome for these reasons, they're mostly how he fights. His quips and brash attitude are what make him awesome. That and his ability to form an army despite being a goof. These are charisma powers. I'm not entirely sure how they'd play out, but they sort of could fit with inventiveness. He takes the situation at hand, no matter how bizzare, and comes up with a quick and dirty solution. He's like a charming MacGyver, now that I think about it. I would want those sorts of powers both in and out of combat if I played a fighter modeled after Ash.

I guess that what I'd want to see would be for fighters to have powers (and perhaps a massive revamp of the skill system). However, I don't want mainly combat powers, which is the direction things have moved in across all editions. I want lots of cool out of combat powers for fighters as well.

I also want the line dividing combat and non combat to be erased.
 


IronWolf

blank
How is this not a badwrongfun post? If you don't follow the BOTE way of gaming, you're not playing the game right?

I know this wasn't directed to me, but I want to state up front you can play the game however you want and use whatever system you want. Plenty of systems for everyone to be playing the game they want to play.

Hussar said:
I mean, sure, having time pressure makes for good adventures. No argument here. But, if every adventure must have these pressures and the only reason for that is to counter the mechanics, then aren't the mechanics dictating a single way of playing?

I would suggest going back and reading some of Wicht's and my posts again during the portion of the thread we covered this. Every adventure *doesn't* need to have a time element to it. The PCs generally aren't always going to know how time sensitive things are. Sometimes it will be obvious, other times it will not. That unknown factor is what allows you to sprinkle in the time sensitive type adventures to help add that unknown factor (or some of the other plot options that I believe BotE listed).

I cannot speak for how others run the game, but my worlds continue in motion not to counter casters, but to keep the world interesting (again, purely my opinion as GM and player). I like it when the world moves forward while we, the PCs, make decisions. Or sometimes we choose to investigate one particular plot of many only to find that the two we did not address moved forward and in some case are more dire or possibly even solved themselves.

So - no, every adventure does not have to be time sensitive and no, this world in motion theory is not dictated by mechanics but by a desire for world verisimilitude.

Hussar said:
There are all sorts of scenarios - exploration scenarios being a prime example, where time pressure doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Agreed.

Hussar said:
I guess that just makes me a bad DM.

Nope. We play a very subjective game and there are lots of ways to play it. People don't have to be wrong here. People just need to play what they find is fun and leave others to have their fun.
 

IronWolf

blank
But in 3E even low level casters can easily make wands and scrolls. Wands will tend to ensure they don't run out of spells. And scrolls will tend to ensure that they have ready access to a much wider range of spells than those memorised.

Does either of you use any particular techniques to control the proliferation of wands and scrolls in your games?

I do not limit the creation of scrolls, wands or potions in games I run beyond time requirements to make said items. i.e. the world moves on even when they take downtime to churn out wands and scrolls.
 


pemerton

Legend
In my experience combat causes three things to occur that inhibit roleplaying (not attacking 4e here, this is from my 2e and 3e experience mainly):
a.) Focus on powers/abilities/numbers like hp, etc...Focus on the rules.
b.) Turn based play.
c.) Lack of meaningful character decisions.

<snip>

c.) Lack of meaningful character decisions. Of course the decisions you make in combat affect life and death. That's not what I'm referring to here. I'm referring to character decisions. Give two players the exact same character sheet, but with totally different backstories and personalities. In combat, assuming they have similar strategies, you won't really notice a difference. Out of combat, you will see them make a number of very different decisions on how to approach NPCs, problems, what to do, where to go, etc.
Interesting. My view tends to be that - if the PCs are different, then this should be reflected in the character sheet. In practice, some games get closer to this than others - eg I think HeroWars/Quest, or Rolemaster, get closer to my ideal than do 4e or Runequest. But 4e still goes some way towards it, I think - the selection of powers and feats says something about the PC.

And an important consideration for me, both in designing encounters and in playing my part in resolving them, is to try to create scope for meaninful decisions - by deploying my NPCs/monsters in certain ways, and therefore opening up the space for the players to respond. I personally find 4e works well at this (eg because of the way it tends to pace combat encounters), but I'm sure with a bit of work it could be done in 3E also.

PC build and action resolution come together here - a well-designed encounter should create the scope, in actionr resolution, for those differences on the character sheet to emerge. Again, I find that 4e supports this, but other games do also (eg Rolemaster, and I imagine 3E at least if played in a certain way).

Conversely, "filler" encounters are the enemy of roleplaying, in my view. I'mnot interested in them. (And also, therefore, not interested in random encounters as a "solution" to the 15 minute adventuring day problem.)

The thing I probably like least in gaming is when there is a "combat mode" and a "noncombat mode".

<snip>

I also want the line dividing combat and non combat to be erased.
I know of some "lite", scene-based RPGs that erase this line - HeroWars/Quest, Maelstrom Storytelling, and at least to an extent The Dying Earth. I'm not sure if there are "crunchy" examples.
 

Wicht

Hero
Does either of you use any particular techniques to control the proliferation of wands and scrolls in your games?

I don't purposefully do anything to control it. Yet there are two factors that help keep it in check: time and money.

There is seldom enough money to make all the magical items that everyone wants and our wizards seem to have a propensity for enchanting swords. I guess I tend to be a bit sparing on treasure. I don't point out where all the treasure is, they have to find it and sometimes, if they are in a hurry, they do not loot every body and they miss things. This keeps them just at or under the expected wealth per level. Wealth is also often found in items, not coin, and as often as not, if a particular item seems useful, they won't sell it. (A fancy chair owned by the evil duke worth 3000 gp will as likely as not end up in a PCs living room.)

I also control the ability to easily buy and sell items to some degree, especially buying magical items: there is always a waiting period for high end magical items (generally made up on the spot). "You want xyz? Sure the merchant thinks he can find one, he'll let you know in a week." "The merchant found an xyz, and if you pay him now, he can have it for you in 3 weeks." This plays into the time part of the game again, forcing the players to allocate time as well as resources.

Additonally, in relation to time, crafting items takes time and so long as the story is moving along well, often there is not the time necessary (or taking the time is percieved to have negative connotations). In between episodes, sure there is more crafting, but again, the amount of resources available (and the penchant for saving up for really big purchases) helps limit what is made.

As well, when it comes to fashioning wands, a lot of times the casters, in actual game play reason as follows, "Why spend the money on a wand of find traps, when Kyle is so good at finding them on his own. I should spend the little money I have on something else instead of wasting it on something we don't actually need."
 
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Vyvyan Basterd

Adventurer
Did you or did you not say that BMX Bandit / Angel Summoner was a "not BS" example of what consistently happened to you?

Yes. Critical portion bolded above.

What shades of "acceptable" apply to that?

None. That's why during my later run of 3.5 I looked for ways to solve this unacceptable problem in ways that satisfied everyone invilved in my game. I did not find a satisfactory method for us. The method that you used to avoid the issue and others used to fix it could be satisfactory to your preferences while being completely unsatsfactory for ours.

True, but to declare there is a built in disparity problem (as some do claim), because there is no rule to prevent one from going Nova then resting does not mean that that is the implied way to play - thus disparity is built in. If you run your games to allow for nova to happen, it's a problem at the DM level, not the system.

A well-designed game will accomodate many styles of play. I can't really speak directly to the nova problem as I never encountered it, but I can sympathize with those who did encounter it. I believe I avoided this issue because my friends bought into the same style of play as I do and because I specifically addressed the issue when people started posting threads about the issue in the mid-life of 3.x. My players and I agreed that we did not want that to occur in our game. Not every group has that kind of open understanding.

To the exact same degree that 3E fans are cancer-ridden addicts.

(I'm not sure you've quite grasped how analogies work. If I say, "Your eyes are blue like an iceberg." I'm not saying that they are literally navigation hazards to large ships.)

"I wasn't literally calling your style narrow." Yeah, uh huh.

I didn't say anything about you. And I didn't say anything about power imbalance. Please don't lie about what I said. It's not very polite.

When one throws out generalities it is bad form to then claim "I wasn't talking about you."

This assumes that scenario design isn't a significant part of the D&D game or the balance of the system. That should be self-evidently nonsense.

(Try playing D&D without any kind of scenario. You can't. It's a necessary part of the game.)

I think many site-based sandboxers might disagree.

I do wonder if magic item creation was something done in oD&D and many AD&D campaigns. Not perhaps major items, but scrolls, potions and the occasional wand?

It was so rare in my campaigns that I might as well say it never happened.

Yes, I would kill her off screen. Sandbox or no sandbox.

To quote a silly/stupid/funny movie: "And then?" What if your players don't care that she was killed?

It really depended on the adventure. First of all, not every mage that played in my game took item creation feats. Clerics almost never did. Even when they do, there is treasure as a limiting factor. Mages needed the funds to scribe spells in spellbooks, create items, buy items, it was a drag on their finances. Where the fighter could save up for his +4 sword, the mages funds could be taxed if he did nothing but create wands.

I found that there really wasn't anything the wizard needed to buy. And usually when item creation occurred in my campaigns it was the party chipping in on buffing spells and healing. I don't think it was abused in my campaigns, but I could see how it could become an issue if it were abused.

Some of your arguments is that if this happens constantly, then the situation becomes contrived. Of course that is true. However, once the wizard learns not to Nova, then you don't have to constantly put time pressures, etc into the game, the wizard doesn't Nova anymore, so no problem anymore.

Once the wizard learns that it is to the benefit of the party to pace his spellcasting to most appropriate incidents as they come to play, and save some of his combat and utility magic to pace with combat and with the varying encounters - the Nova problem no longer exists, disparity lessens; problem solved.

You game with Pavlov's Dog? Cool. :)

I don't think you'd be able to "train" someone who wanted to abuse nova/rest/repeat if they were determined to do so. Especially if the entire group is determined to do so.

Periodically change the pace and introduce new pressure threats as it best fits the storyline, but don't make it a constant thing - variety makes things interesting.

Agreed.

Sure - if you want this sort of play experience.

Another option, obviously, is to change the way wizard PCs resources work, so that nova/rest is no longer a mechanical option.

I don't see any reason to think that either approach is inherently more suitable for a fantasy RPG, or that either approach is inherently "narrow" or "simplistic" compared to the other.

QFT
 

Vyvyan Basterd

Adventurer
I also control the ability to easily buy and sell items to some degree, especially buying magical items: there is always a waiting period for high end magical items (generally made up on the spot). "You want xyz? Sure the merchant thinks he can find one, he'll let you know in a week." "The merchant found an xyz, and if you pay him now, he can have it for you in 3 weeks." This plays into the time part of the game again, forcing the players to allocate time as well as resources.

Here's a perfect example of satisfactory solutions that are unsatisfactory, for me.

I started DMing with OD&D/BD&D/AD&D where buying anything but minor magic items, in my campaigns, was unheard of. In those days you made use of what you found. There was no magic item economy. And it worked for us.

We tried this approach in 3.x but it seemed that characters were more dependent on magic items, so our old method of play had to change if we wanted 3.x to work for us. I tried exactly what worked for Wicht, but it felt arbitrary and uneven to the group. I ended up using the 3E DMG guidelines and allowed just about any purhase under the limit for whatever settlement they were in. It was the best solution for us, but who knows, maybe it added to our issue?
 


Vyvyan Basterd

Adventurer
I would either find new players who weren't sociopaths or I would try to determine what I had done to fail to create the necessary sympathy with the presented world.

Good solution and one I would probably echo if a talk with my players still left me at the same point. But this might not be a good solution for all. That's why I can sympathize with others that might suffer this issue. What if your desire to play outweighs the inability to find new players? I have great players, I'm thankful for that. I live in an area that should have a good number of gamers, but recent searches for a new player proved difficult. I can't imagine if I lived in a more rural area.
 

Wicht

Hero
Good solution and one I would probably echo if a talk with my players still left me at the same point. But this might not be a good solution for all. That's why I can sympathize with others that might suffer this issue. What if your desire to play outweighs the inability to find new players? I have great players, I'm thankful for that. I live in an area that should have a good number of gamers, but recent searches for a new player proved difficult. I can't imagine if I lived in a more rural area.

I play to have fun. Playing with people like that would not be fun for me. Personally, dropping the group would be preferable to me than pressing forward anyway, even if they were the only players around.
 

gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
You game with Pavlov's Dog? Cool. :)

I don't think you'd be able to "train" someone who wanted to abuse nova/rest/repeat if they were determined to do so. Especially if the entire group is determined to do so.

Actually I never specifically trained anyone, this style described in my game has been part of the social contract of our group for the last 20 years of play. This is the style we all play by. We've had two newcomers to our group over the last four years or so - but they came to the game without any preconceptions. They just watched how we played and adapted. So nobody was ever trained in the "Don't Nova, its Wrong" concept - for us that's the way you're supposed to play.

I was just responding to the concerns or interjections of what if Nova/Rest is the way we currently play now, and we consider the disparity problem to be built in. For those thinking this way, my posts here were if you wanted to fix that perceived way of playing, then the various techniques like time pressure, etc. could be applied to lessen that playstyle and remove the disparity problem.

Again, I've never seen the disparity problem in our games, but could certainly see some playstyles leading to the problem. I was just trying to imagine, what I would do as a GM had such a player come to my table and I wanted to bring him into the groups primary play style.

I'm not saying the other playstyle is wrong, its just as some pointed out a leading element to creating a caster disparity in the game if you do play that. If the disparity is no problem don't worry about it. However if disparity is a problem then perhaps changing your style might remove it...

GP
 

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