Casters Nerfed, Melee Ascendant (3.5)

[Dinkeldog]

You don't get out much do you?

/mod hat on: One of the things I like about EN World is how nice we are to each other.

Exactly which changes have these been that "will allow the group to function better as a whole?" It seems like hour/level statbuffs were an ideal situation if you wanted a group to function better as a whole than as mega-individuals. Two characters with gauntlets of ogre power, +5 swords, and bracers of health (the effective 3.5e characters) sound like mega-individuals since their abilities are largely independent of each other. Two characters, one of whom casts endurance and bull's strength on the other in return for Cat's Grace and Greater Magic Weapon sounds much more like a group functioning together as a team to me. In the first case, the individuals' abilities are largely independent of each other and their power comes almost entirely from abilities or items they personally possess. In the second case, neither character is operating at peak effectiveness without the other character's contribution. That sounds like the definition of teamwork to me.

One can argue that the 3.5e changes are good for the game. One can't sensibly argue that they increase teamwork. They nerfed all of the most significant teamwork-contributing spells in 3e.

If the fighter requires the mage or cleric to craft wondrous item the gauntlets of ogre power +6, then I'd say they're still working as a team.

 

[rangerjohn]

OOh real exiting, my contribution to the game is to be a craftman for the fighter. Why am I going to the dungeon, again?
The only reasons I can think of are meta (to gain experience points to make more magic for the fighter) or role play (I'm crazy and want to see my items field tested and put my d4 life on the line.)

 

[Felon]

OOh real exiting, my contribution to the game is to be a craftman for the fighter.

Attention: rationality has left the building.

The point being, if you were content to be a buffbot for the fighter, you can be about as content being a craftsman.

Of course, there's plenty you can do outside of that, and in fact the changes to spells have hardly been all that sweeping, but don't let that stop the ranting.

 

[Al]

If the fighter requires the mage or cleric to craft wondrous item the gauntlets of ogre power +6, then I'd say they're still working as a team.

I've almost never seen this done. In nearly every game I've played, the wizard has broadly steered clear of item creation, and even in those when he has, the party needs to make use of incidental downtime. Very rarely does a party willingly sit around whilst the wizard makes items- they would normally just buy it from an NPC. That's IME of course, but from the various threads on item creation rules, I think that that is probably the case in a plurality if not a majority of cases.

You'd play a spellcaster for the same reason you played them in every previous edition of D&D- for the spells and abilities that they possess that no other character can even begin to approximate. Mass damage spells- check. Planar travel and teleport spells- check. Utility spells- check. The only things that have been taken away were the changes in 3E that made spellcasters overpowered in some circumstances

Mass damage spells- nerfed due to higher monster HPs, worse Reflex DCs and/or nerfed outright (Horrid Wilting)
Planar travel and teleport spells- nerfed with shorter range.
Utility spells- the most common of which (the buffs) have been nerfed.

Yes, they did away the worst elements of 3e. Haste was justified, and I had already house ruled Harm (and Heal vs undead). Polymorph nerf I could live with, Hold I just about sucked up, but with the buffs, disintegrate, Horrid Wilting, GMW, etc. it became not merely rectification but ruination.

Spellcasters still have thier place in every game, and we've only seen a small amount of spells being "nerfed". Spellcasters have a LOT more spells than just the tiny amount we've been shown changed

Sure, spellcasters are still playable, if one is prepared to play a significantly weakened class. As for them having a LOT of spells, a LOT of spells are never used. Most of the nerfed spells are the ones used regularly by casters. If Sequester, Protection from Spells and Guards and Wards are still as powerful, this is hardly a compensation.

We are talking about disintegrate, yes?

Okay, 11th level caster vs. 11th level lich. Lich has +5 Fort save (assumes +2 cloak of resistance); caster has DC 22 (20 Int, Spell Focus, 6th level spell). Lich has touch AC of 17 (includes Mage Armour, Ring of Protection +2), caster has +6 to hit (Dex 13). Caster hits 50% of time, lich passes save 20% of time, so aggregate damage is a whopping 45 points of damage. The average lich has 72 points. In other words, no, hong, disintegrate can't kill the lich.

If you can't use that couple of rounds to dispatch him, you're doing something wrong

Or fighting an intelligent opponent. Remember that coup de grace is a full-round action which provokes an AoO. Of course you can co-ordinate strategies, but in any event the DCs are going to be lower so a strategy based around Hold is far more likely to go awry.

If the tanks get pumped up enough, hopefully they won't be running away so much, and so the wizards won't have to get into melee themselves.

No, the reason that wizards are forced into melee is because the tanks charge them. Wizards are still dangerous, and coupled with low HPs and generally low AC, this makes them obvious targets.

Average high-level melee damage is ALREADY well in excess of 100 points per round. However, they are also facing OTHER things that can dish out 100 points per round.

That's *exactly* the point. In 3.5e, it will therefore be more than 100 per round. Wizards can just about keep up, but they sacrifice HPs and AC just to do a comparable amount of damage. That's not a tradeoff. In 3e, wizards have better offensive capabilities but more obvious weaknesses; in 3.5e, the wizards have merely comparable offensive capabilities but retain their weaknesses. If WotC wants the nerfed wizard in offense, it should give some defensive compensation, such as a higher hit dice or possibly light armour proficiency.

 

[Nasma]

To my mind at least, wizards are not supposed to be able to deal out as large amounts of damage to single opponents as melee fighter, this ability is the melee fighter's main (maybe only) strength.

Wizards are, however, able to cast confusion (the fighter will fail his save 75% of the time), fear (similar effect), mirror image/ mislead (how can the fighter dish out all that damge it he can't even locate the wizard). The wizard can dimension door away, cast all of his preperation spells, reappear (now flying, invisible and casting disintigrates from scrolls) and utterly destroy the fighter.

If the wizard were able to match a fighter in terms of straight damge to a single opponent, the fighter would lose all appeal. The advantage of the fighter is to be able to act as a emat shield and, consistently, deal out large amounts of damage.

 

[Daeinar]

As someone who is not a native English speaker, the extensive use of the word "nerfed" really somehow concerned me - until I found out that it does not mean "totally useless" as opposed to simply (and imo reasonably) "weaker".

 

[hong]

Okay, 11th level caster vs. 11th level lich.

Which is a CR 13 monster. Recall that it was the phenomenon of casters taking down monsters of higher CR than their level in one shot, that caused so much heartache.

Lich has +5 Fort save (assumes +2 cloak of resistance); caster has DC 22 (20 Int, Spell Focus, 6th level spell).

Greater Spell Focus bumps that up to 23. Spellcasting Prodigy bumps it up to 24. Various boom-spell PrCs can bump it even higher.

Lich has touch AC of 17 (includes Mage Armour, Ring of Protection +2), caster has +6 to hit (Dex 13).

A wizard with Dex 13 will be dead long before reaching 11th level, for desperate lack of AC. Try Dex 16 at minimum. Add Weapon Focus (ray) and Point-Blank Shot for extra fun.

Caster hits 50% of time, lich passes save 20% of time, so aggregate damage is a whopping 45 points of damage. The average lich has 72 points. In other words, no, hong, disintegrate can't kill the lich.

Ah, this must be an example of the post-modernist statistics they keep telling me about. First, confusing averages with individual outcomes is something they tell you to avoid in Stat 101. Second, notice that there's nothing stopping you casting a second disintegrate, if the first one fails.

Or fighting an intelligent opponent. Remember that coup de grace is a full-round action which provokes an AoO.

The AoO does not prevent the coup de grace. And anyway, who's talking about coup de grace? Just full attack the guy. Have two people do it, if necessary. If you're worried about lackeys interfering, recall that nobody wastes hold or dominate on lackeys.

Of course you can co-ordinate strategies, but in any event the DCs are going to be lower so a strategy based around Hold is far more likely to go awry.

Tommyrot.

No, the reason that wizards are forced into melee is because the tanks charge them.

A wizard going around on by himself, without tanks of his own to guard him, deserves to die. Heck, it happens even in 3E already.

Wizards are still dangerous, and coupled with low HPs and generally low AC, this makes them obvious targets.

If they're as nerfed as you claim, then clearly they're not so dangerous anymore, yes?

 

[rangerjohn]

Hong, how many feats are you giving this 11th level wizard?
Spell focus,Greater Spell Focus, Weapon Focus Ray, Spell Casting Prodigy, Point Blank Shot. I count five and since none of them are meta magic or item creation... If he's human he can pull it off, at the cost of all his feats for one spell!

 

[Dalamar]

Lich has touch AC of 17 (includes Mage Armour, Ring of Protection +2)

Last time I checked, you don't count armor bonus for touch AC

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

I find it funny that there's constant complaining that spellcasters are now useless without these important spells...when IME, none of my players have made use of ANY of these tactics(they don't even like teleport) and have done PERFECTLY FINE. In fact, they probably do better, since they aren't as reliant on a single spell(which can be dispelled quickly most likely).
*shrugs* And this is a pointless argument. I'm going back to lurking mode and handing things over to Hong. He's doing just fine.