Castles & Crusades vs. Old School Essentials vs. Low Fantasy Gaming

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
I own copies of C&C and OSE, but haven't read Low Fantasy Gaming, so my answer is rather incomplete.
Mine will be incomplete too; I own none of the above.

Microlite20 is my first choice for old school style - free to use, lots of mods/expansions, simple class & race choices, and the rules, though D&D-like, are just archaic enough to give the first-time-meeting-RPGs feel.

But given the non-stop discussion about OSR on the boards, I'm overdue to write an OSR module for Modos RPG (which would probably be a quick write-up and an interesting conflict of OGL interests...).

I'll have to peruse these other comparisons to see what I'm missing! 🤓
 

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Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
I run OSE now and love it. The base game is pretty much a re-organized clone of B/X, but with the Advanced rules it mixes in enough AD&D to be nearly perfect for me. Just got my Kickstarter stuff, Advanced Monsters and Advanced Treasure which pretty much makes the game exactly what I want. And its easy enough to fit in stuff from any of the other B/X clones. And as for layout and use at the table its wonderfully done.

I ran C&C back in the first printing days of it and I did like it as I was burned out on running 3.x and looking for something a bit more simple. But it wasn't enough to hold me and I'm not the biggest fan of the siege system though I could defiantly play or run it again.

Never heard of Low Fantasy Gaming.

I'd run S&W though if I dropped OSE. OSE has just enough extra meat on the bone though to put it over.
 


Parmandur

Book-Friend
We moved our 3E campaign to C&C when 4E came out, as I needed a break from the increasingly cumbersome 3E system as everyone leveled up. It hit the sweet spot for me, with its broad compatibility with everything from OD&D through 3E (and probably 5E), but I never stopped having to puzzle through the Siege Engine, which isn't nearly as clear as the Troll Lords think and is an obviously subpar resolution system. But I loved that we could grab monsters, spells or even whole character classes from other editions of the game and throw them into C&C without breaking stride.

Their class design is great and the class-and-a-half system lets groups create unique classes that feel like 1E classes should have included. A balanced, spell-less ranger and spell-less paladin by default (and a knight class, for folks who want their paladins to be entirely free of supernatural influence) are great, and you can then add back in spells through the class-and-a-half system. My campaign had a ranger with druid spells and one who had cleric spells through her worship of the goddess of home and hearth, and they both had a distinctive feel to them. Likewise, C&C gives you the 1E assassin, which you can turn into a 3E assassin by doing class-and-a-half with illusionist.

Some of their supplements, which have gone through multiple systems and have been converted by people without real system mastery (Book of Familiars, I'm looking at you) are kind of a mess, but it's the excited puppy enthusiasm of early Dragon magazine articles, rather than a cavalier attitude about putting out good products.

They've also put out a really solid line of various cultural takes on C&C (for the most part -- the Germanic and Norse books have a large overlap with each other and probably should have been one book, rather than asking people to buy the same material twice), something I'm surprised other major/second-tier companies haven't emulated in the same way.

The whole line could use a serious edit (at one point, their two main monster books had competing versions of Zork's grue, which no one at Troll Lords headquarters seemed to have realized) and I could not care less about their official setting that they increasingly focus on. But the Troll Lords themselves seem to be just about the nicest guys in the roleplaying business and their love of early to mid 1E radiates through the whole line (as opposed to Goodman's focus on early 1E flavor).

I would love to see someone come in with a ton of money and help them upgrade their line to more professional polish and maybe pry the Siege Engine from their fingers in favor of a more standard D20 resolution system, which I think would make their game instantly more accessible.
I'm not directly familiar with Castles & Crusades, can you explain how the SIEGE Engine works? I recall hearing people say that one of the 5E DMG optional replacements for the Skills system was pretty similar.

I haven't played any of the 3 systems in question, but I'm going to put a rec for Dungeon Crawl Classics out there. A very different game that reexamine the assumptions of the genre from the ground up.
 

Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
I'm not directly familiar with Castles & Crusades, can you explain how the SIEGE Engine works? I recall hearing people say that one of the 5E DMG optional replacements for the Skills system was pretty similar.

I haven't played any of the 3 systems in question, but I'm going to put a rec for Dungeon Crawl Classics out there. A very different game that reexamine the assumptions of the genre from the ground up.

Basically in your prime attributes you need a 12 on your check, on the rest its an 18. Then there are stat mods of course and difficulty modifiers and you add your level as well. So D20+stat mod+level > 12/18 + difficulty
 


Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
I'm not directly familiar with Castles & Crusades, can you explain how the SIEGE Engine works?
The Siege Engine has two set difficulties for difficulty rolls, one for if you're proficient (you pick two ability scores to be proficient in, based on your class, and all abilities that would come under that*, you're proficient in) and one if you're not proficient. Then you kind of back into rolling against that number -- I have flushed some of the complications out of my brain, because they were always kind of goofy -- and see how you did.

But the numbers don't change as you level, since your stats don't improve, so your ability to do class-related abilities never gets better. And since there's only two set numbers, it gets unnecessarily fiddly to change difficulties.
I recall hearing people say that one of the 5E DMG optional replacements for the Skills system was pretty similar.
A lot of 5E looks like Castles & Crusades. Some of it is no doubt parallel evolution, as both games had similar goals, but it would be a shock if the 5E team hadn't closely examined C&C when they were preparing for D&D Next.

* C&C also doesn't spell out which skills go with which ability scores, leading to a lot of debate in my experience. We eventually just went off the 3E skills and which stats they were associated with. A lot of C&C relies on the Troll Lords unspoken and unpublished house rules.
 



Von Ether

Legend
But the numbers don't change as you level, since your stats don't improve, so your ability to do class-related abilities never gets better. And since there's only two set numbers, it gets unnecessarily fiddly to change difficulties.

I remembering that PCs got a level bonus for skills relating to their class, which made thieves with their lower XP levels keep pace with the other classes.

For the Siege Engine, my crew simply did a +6 bonus for Prime skills. The math seemed a little wonky at first or second level (so was 3e where I saw lucky rolls turn a wizard into a killing machine for session), but as characters go up, it all sorted out.
 

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