Castles & Crusades vs. Old School Essentials vs. Low Fantasy Gaming

Zardnaar

Legend
C&C might need to fudge the numbers eg not tying attack numbers for monsters to HD. Dragons are wonky.

C&C is definitely one of the easier to run not D&D's.

OSE might be to simple but I like it but haven't played it. I would play it but I have several B/X clones already don't need another.

Not familiar with last one.

C&C wins based on what I'm familiar with/own.
 

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cbwjm

Seb-wejem
I'd say CnC, but that's mostly due to my familiarity with it. I think I've read through old school essentials but dismissed it, possibly because I could just use my old school books. No idea what low fantasy gaming is though.
 

But the numbers don't change as you level, since your stats don't improve, so your ability to do class-related abilities never gets better.
Don't you add your class level to all class based skill checks?

And since there's only two set numbers, it gets unnecessarily fiddly to change difficulties.

The seige engine could easily be replaced with a flat bonus (and often is).

Although you could also use 5e proficiency bonus if you like.
 

Gnosistika

Mildly Ascorbic
My preference lies with C&C, warts and all. It is just easy to run. My group actually like the SIEGE engine, it is not perfect but it is simple enough for just pick up and go when we feal like doing some D&D. Hacked on Kits and spells from ad&d 2e and it runs great. We did move to Monsters & Magic eventually (there is no support for the system sadly).

OSE is a great game but I just can't seem to find joy running it.
 

jdrakeh

Front Range Warlock
Castles & Crusades for me. It's not perfect, but it is simple and has an absolute ton of support in the form of adventures, bestiaries, and other supplements. Plus, the editing has improved considerably in the recent past. I own the sixth and seventh printings of the PHB, the fifth printing of M&T, and the second printing of the CKG. All are reasonably free of serious errors.

Old School Essentials is something that I own - in some form - but haven't yet played. I say "in some form" because there have been a lot of "core" OSE rulebooks competing for the same game space. It's kind of confusing for me, to be honest. That said, the system has a good reputation and has a fair library of support for a game that isn't that old.

Finally, Low Fantasy Gaming was, frankly, a mess. I owned the first edition (there's a second "Deluxe" edition now). The first edition had all the bad editing of early Castles & Crusades, exacerbated by a bunch of half-baked rules (I've heard a fellow designer refer to them as "incomplete"). I was put off enough by the first edition that I didn't give the Deluxe edition a chance.
 
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GreyLord

Legend
I'm not directly familiar with Castles & Crusades, can you explain how the SIEGE Engine works? I recall hearing people say that one of the 5E DMG optional replacements for the Skills system was pretty similar.

I haven't played any of the 3 systems in question, but I'm going to put a rec for Dungeon Crawl Classics out there. A very different game that reexamine the assumptions of the genre from the ground up.

Siege engine works that you have primes and normal ability scores. With a Prime ability score you get a +8 +level to roll over (so, in general it is a 12 that you need to roll over, though you reduce that by 1 point per level, so 11 at 1st level, 10 at 2nd leve, 9 at third level) when you are trying something (for example, trying to break down a door).

[NOTE: Some would call it a +6 bonus, and say the base difficulty roll is actually an 18 rather than 20. This is actually more in line with the more recent releases of the 5e proficiency bonus if you will, putting the base DC as 18, and those with the primary ability score bonus as getting a +6 to that roll]

This can be opposed by other checks. These are also adjudicated or adjusted by level. For example, if that door you were trying to break down was being supported and refreshed by another the difficulty would go up by +1 per level.

An example of this would be if you were trying to sneak past an Guard. If you were level 5, your base difficulty to roll over would be a 7 (12 - 5). If the guard was a level 4 guard, or 4 HD guard, this would add 4 points to that 7 (7+4) which would mean you would need to roll a 4 or greater to succeed as long as Dexterity was your primary ability score.

Any ability score which is NOT your primary ability score gives you a +2 (so you would need to roll an 18 or greater as a base). So, in the example above, if dexterity was NOT your primary ability score you would need to roll a 13 at level 5 (18-5). The Guard being a 4th level guard would mean you need to roll over a 17 (13+4) to succeed.

[NOTE: In reference above, if you say 18 is the Base difficulty DC, than you don't get a bonus, so much as roll based off the DC without the proficiency bonus, only adding your level bonus instead]

Demi-humans get 2 primary ability scores, Humans get 3. Half Elves get and additional half primary ability score as one would put it, that gives them a halfway bonus between the two.

In many ways, 4e's and 5e's proficiency systems were taken from Castles and Crusades and as such are very adaptable to it (though 4e was a mere +4, and 5e adapated from that is a more gradual elevation of +2 to +6).

Similarly, they work very closely (opposed checks use proficiency bonus...etc) in how they operate.

I find Castles and Crusades actually melds even better with 5e than it did with 3e (didn't meld to well with 4e despite the proficiency system similarities though, mostly due to the extra powers each class got in 4e).

I use it in a mix and match with 5e rather often today, using more of a 5e system, but with C&C bonuses and classes as well as adventures.
 


Weiley31

Legend
I've yet to dip my feet in the OSR, but I lean more towards OSE since I've been wanting to play/try out BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia, even though OSE is basically B/X. But then, this is coming from a guy who wants to play BECMI using a combination of Rules Cyclopedia and modding in stuff in the way Lamentations of the Flame Princess does things, such as using its Specialist in place of the normal thief/swapping the thief table with the Specialist table mechanics.

Then again, this is also coming from the guy who wants to play Lamentations of the Flame Princess using various rules from Rules Cyclopedia and a Sphynx pc from one of the older Creature Crucible books. Why be afraid of the monsters when you are the monster in sheep's clothing.

I will give points to Castle and Crusades for coming out with those sweet looking homage covers of the PHB, MM, and DMG. I'll probably get those books just because of the homages.
 
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