Catholicism in a Campaign

[Sir Whiskers]

But look at it this way: All you really need is an event that splits the One church from the "good" church, right? How about a harbinger comes, no need for him to be royalty, just a messenger who says, "the rules have changed." But put in in an atmosphere of slight uncertainty; maybe he was believed to be an adversary, or maybe this harbinger performed the miracles as was foretold, but NOT THE miracles that were foretold. Then you have the "good" church saying, "No, he isn't", you have the One Church saying, "yes, he is," and voila! Friendly split between the religions. Then you can have extremists coming in to say the teachings are harmful, and introduce the occasional persecutor that way.

For a REAL role reversal, have the One Church being the one denying the harbinger, and the "good" church among the ones breaking off. SO you have "in the beginning was the One Church, keeper of the One's word" and then the churches of Law, Chaos, Good, and Evil break off, because the One's harbinger said, "the rules have changed - there must be struggle in order for my will to be completed, and the perfection of all things to come"; then, BANG you have the old church being the one trying to hold things together, and the G/E/C/L churches trying to "progress" and finish the message. You change the paradigm from Jewish Faith / Pre-Catholic Church to Catholic Church / Protestants.

To expand on this somewhat, how about this: Sometime in the distant past, there was only the One Church. An event occurred which caused the current churches to come into being, and the One Church ceased to exist. Fast forward to present day. The character in your campaign has discovered (or been taught by someone who discovered) the lost teachings of the One Church. Now, instead of trying to build the One Church on one of the current faiths, those faiths were actually built upon the One Church.

BTW, if the event which occurred in the past includes a story similar to Christ, then one element could be that resurrection was not possible until then. Your Christ figure could be the one who brought this great power into your world in the first place. Just a thought.

 

[ph0rk]

Rather than worship any of these gods, she has decided to play a Catholic priest who worships one god only and has the attitudes and beliefs of a Catholic a few hundred years post-Christ. While we've had a lot of fun working out the logistics of this and researching it historically, I'm having some trouble working her into the fold. Here is the problem with which I'm most concerned: Catholicism draws on both the New Testiment and the Old. The problem being that it has come out of another religion to which it is closely tied. In our world, Catholicism comes out of Judaism, but in this imaginary world, Judaism does not exist. I'm playing with the idea of setting it up as if Catholicism has come out of worshiping good as a force (like my other PC's character), but I'm not convinced this is the best way.

I'd play it as an offshoot of the 'good' cult, perhaps even a persecuted sect that was illegal for several hundred years until an emperor had a battlefield crisis of faith and emblazoned the shields of his legionniares with signs of the....

er

Actually, I would make a strong point of while the ideas and philosophy of this cult were similar to catholicism, it was -not- catholicism, in name anyway.

Might save you some headache/painful discussion later. Sooner or later someone will either decide to go and become born again, or you may aquire a devout gamer. Is the similarity to catholicism worth the possible headache? Is it impossible to play a cleric with these ideals without bringing in the catholic faith? (i doubt it)

 

[Henry]

Might save you some headache/painful discussion later. Sooner or later someone will either decide to go and become born again, or you may aquire a devout gamer. Is the similarity to catholicism worth the possible headache? Is it impossible to play a cleric with these ideals without bringing in the catholic faith? (i doubt it)

Were it my game, that's what I would likely do, myself. Better to have at least ONE degree of separation to avoid any problems either now or down the road. If you have gamers who are exceptionally mature about handling the subject with sensitivity, then it's great - but as I myself know, there's no telling how your circle of gamers may change in the future.

 

[Henry]

Oh, one other word, as a reminder to new contributors as much as praise for the current contribs, but -- thanks to all for keeping it heated but civil and within bounds.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Saints are not gods and gods are not Saints, and only those utterly ignorant of the veneration of the Saints would make claims conflating the two.

Absorbed deities like St. Bridget to the contrary?

Yes, a large number of these were later removed from the calendar, but they were believed in by a large number of people for rather a long time...

The Auld Grump, from a comparative religion viewpoint the lines delineating the difference between saint and deity can be blurred, particularly in the lay membership.

 

[Mark Chance]

The Auld Grump, from a comparative religion viewpoint the lines delineating the difference between saint and deity can be blurred, particularly in the lay membership.

Admittedly. But just as ignorance of the law doesn't change the law, neither does ignorance of doctrine change doctrine. Have Catholics - perhaps many Catholics down to today - worshipped saints? Certainly. Has the Catholic Church herself ever approved of saint worship? Not ever.

The same can apply to the paladin in question. The "other gods" aren't really gods. Worshipping them, therefore, is gravely sinful. A paladin is not a comparative religionist. Blurred lines result from spiritual astigmatism, and the corrective lenses of the Truth must be applied posthaste!

And, Don, IIRC, the curse read against Christians in synagogues starting circa A.D. 80 was the birkat hamim. Of course, it's been a few years since I studied that material, and I can find neither my course notes from the Gospel of John nor my Raymond Brown commentaries.

 

[Wrath of the Swarm]

Ultimately the nature of a religion is determined by what its practitioners believe, not what codified doctrine says. No matter how hard the Catholic Church tries to stamp out Mary worship, it takes place anyway. The impulses that drive people to do so are far older than the Church.

 

[Piratecat]

I'll remind people to keep this focused on the use of the religion in the game, and not a discussion of the religion in general (or in specific!)

Many thanks.

 

[DonAdam]

Ultimately the nature of a religion is determined by what its practitioners believe, not what codified doctrine says. No matter how hard the Catholic Church tries to stamp out Mary worship, it takes place anyway. The impulses that drive people to do so are far older than the Church.

Let's not let this discussion get any further, because to argue this point would get us into a religious debate; what Mark pointed out is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches ("The world groaned to find itself Arian."). I have a strong suspicion that the only place that discussion could go is to an argument about magisterial authority, which would be no good at all (for these boards).

And, Don, IIRC, the curse read against Christians in synagogues starting circa A.D. 80 was the birkat hamim. Of course, it's been a few years since I studied that material, and I can find neither my course notes from the Gospel of John nor my Raymond Brown commentaries.

I just checked mine, and it seems that there is some doubt about the whole curse thing. This is from Intro to the New Testament p. 374, footnote 110; the footnote is referenced in his hypothetical reconstruction of the history of the Johannine community after stating that the Christians were expelled from the synagogues:

This thesis is not based on the existence, interpretation, or dating (often to AD 85) of the Birkat ha-minim, inserted as the twelfth of the Eighteen Benedictions (Shemoneh Esreh), i.e., a Jewish curse on those who were considered deviants... we do not know how quickly and widely this curse was adopted. The inclusion of the Christians among the deviants may have come considerably later than the composition of John.

Brown considers it unlikely, but it must be widespread enough a belief that he would need to clarify that it is not his.

 

[the Jester]

Here is another point that I'm having trouble with: the resurection. In real-world Catholicism this was percieved as miraculous, however, would it have the same effect in a D&D setting, where there a fair amount of people who can resurect.

It's different if it's direct divine intervention.