Certain Justice - Megaoverpowered?

[Elric]

Certain Justice is too good. Suggested house rule:

Champion of Order (Paladin Paragon Path):
Certain Justice (Encounter 11): Change the second sentence to “If the target is marked by you, it is also weakened and dazed until the end of your next turn.” Change damage to 1[W] + Strength modifier.

Champion of Order—In Defense of Order (Feature, level 11): Change the first sentence to add: “When you are adjacent to the target of your divine challenge, the target provokes an opportunity attack from you if it shifts or makes an attack that does not include you as a target.”

Reasoning: Certain Justice is too powerful as written, and completely changes the dynamics of fights against solos. Changing its effect to until the end of the next turn greatly weakens the power, so adding to damage seems fair. Changing In Defense of Order so that the target also provokes opportunity attacks on a shift makes this feature stronger and more thematic, and helps compensate for the change to Certain Justice.

 

[Victim]

His other gifts are not really that great either, focusing on Outsiders and Elementals. I'd say this encounter power helps keep the whole mess from sucking.

Jay

I agree with this. Hospitaler and Justiciar both seem equivalent or stronger on the whole, even if their encounter power isn't as spiffy. Pit Fighter is also a strong contender for many STR pallies.

 

[Eldorian]

Define "well designed".

My DM has been taking us through the paragon level Dungeon Delves, and we have found that we generally overcome the encounters with relative ease. In most fights, the party does not even have to use any healing powers because we beat the monsters before anybody gets bloodied.

Of course, certain justice is only one of the contributing factors. We also have an eladrin tactical warlord/spiral tactician who makes our action points very effective, and a dwarf ranger/pit fighter wielding two jagged waraxes who carves great chunks out of the enemies' hit points.

I'm also finding paragon level combats to be pretty easy, as in, no spending of healing surges until after battle on many of them. And if half of us use an AP (which happens most of the time) the enemy is drastically reduced in strength after the 2nd round.

 

[Ryujin]

Doesn't sound any worse than the Bard Paragon Path Grave Caller which gives you the ability to mark one opponent for the encounter and do d6+CHA damage on a miss with an encounter power, then roll two d20 for hits with encounter and daily powers once you reach 16th level.

Certain Justice has a host of things that will make it end; forced movement, dazing and a move, stunning, imposing other opponents.....

 

[Klaus]

Good evening!


I was looking at Certain Justice (PHB 100) from champion of Order paladin paragon path.

* +4 to hit? Nice!
* Dazed and weakenned until no longer marked? (wtf!)
* Encounte power (???)

Its just me or this seems way too powerfull? Sounds like the paladin can choose 1 oponent to be screwed up all combat long. And do it every combat.

PS: I know there are ways to break a mark but pls do not consider them when answering. I dont like to let a player have something just to keep countering that later.

If the target is marked via Divine Challenge, the paladin has to attack it or end his turn adjacent to it. Prevent either one of those from happening, and the power ends.

If the target is marked via Divine Sanction, then the duration is determined in the power that granted the sanction (for instance, the sanctioning at-will marks the target until the paladin's next turn).

The dependency of these conditions makes the power less powerful (wow, that last bit sounded redundant).

 

[Dr_Sage]

If the target is marked via Divine Challenge, the paladin has to attack it or end his turn adjacent to it. Prevent either one of those from happening, and the power ends.

If the target is marked via Divine Sanction, then the duration is determined in the power that granted the sanction (for instance, the sanctioning at-will marks the target until the paladin's next turn).

The dependency of these conditions makes the power less powerful (wow, that last bit sounded redundant).

I disagree with the first part.

Its cheesy to keep an opponent marked, and the PP feature says "until not marked by you", so after Divine Power you can replace your own marks if you want, its not an issue.

Even with Divine Challenge alone, a slowed, immobilized, penalyzed with -10, dazed paladin can still keep an opponent marked. The pally can just use one of the many ranged powers or trown a freaking rock at the monster - he does not need to hit anything to keep it marked. At least RAW.

And about encounter design: I dont like the idea of keeping countering some PC ability, makes no sense to me to let a PC have something and keep denying its use. I am not saying my poor monsters wont have a chance, i am thinking that this pp shines 3000% more tham the others tacticaly wise, specially against solos.

 

[Turtlejay]

Really? I still like the Hospitaler more. It is a good power, certainly, but one power does not a good Paragon Path make.

Jay

 

[keterys]

Balance aside, both the Hospitaler's heal on marked attacks and Certain Justice actively attempt to make the game more boring, so I'd advise avoiding them. As a player or DM.

 

[CapnZapp]

Really? I still like the Hospitaler more. It is a good power, certainly, but one power does not a good Paragon Path make.

Jay

Hi Jay. I notice you're repeatedly posting to convince us this PP isn't over-powered.

Have you considered that you might have missed what others have found?

I haven't played a Paragon Paladin at all, but even I can understand how this power can almost single-handedly shut down a Solo. Which is not merely boring - as bad as that is - but broken too.

Could you please define in more detail why you think this power isn't enough for a minmaxer (that isn't concerned about "boring", only "brokenly effective") to choose? Because as long as you don't; the analysis won't get much further; essentially becoming bogged down into the mire of subjective opinion.

 

[Turtlejay]

Hi Jay. I notice you're repeatedly posting to convince us this PP isn't over-powered.

Have you considered that you might have missed what others have found?

I haven't played a Paragon Paladin at all, but even I can understand how this power can almost single-handedly shut down a Solo. Which is not merely boring - as bad as that is - but broken too.

Could you please define in more detail why you think this power isn't enough for a minmaxer (that isn't concerned about "boring", only "brokenly effective") to choose? Because as long as you don't; the analysis won't get much further; essentially becoming bogged down into the mire of subjective opinion.

Of course I don't mind responding. I did respond first to the query, see post #2 in this thread. I feel like a Paladin's marking mechanic makes this Power less deadly than it might seem at first blush.

I have quite a bit of experience playing a Paladin. I played one from 1st-8th level. I know that the marking mechanic encourages you to change marks depending on the situation. My Paladin rarely kept one mob locked down.

In our current campaign my friend plays a Paladin. His playstyle is different, so he tends to keep enemies marked better, but his mark still only lasts two or three rounds, ending when an enemy dies, or when he is unable to maintain the mark.

So, taking this power means a dramatic playshift in how you play a Paladin. You lose some of the utility of marking at a distance. In most fights, you will keep one mook in isolation until it is dead. You become Avenger-like in that sense.

The *only* time this power seems abuable is in solo fights. The counter to this is the fact that many solos would have an easy time breaking this mark.

I object to the wording "megaoverpowered" and substitute "powerful". It is certainly a good power, and if it were simply avalable to take with other powers, it would be the clear choice. As part of a Paragon Path, though, you need to look at the whole picture. What are you giving up to take it? Will the rest of the features of the path be good, too?

In my opinion the other features of this path are not great. Bonuses that apply to a certain class of creatures are frustrating to the player and the DM. The player feels cheated if he never encounters things that play to his strengths, and the DM feels pressure to include those things to make him happy. See the thread about the undead nuking cleric that was on the front page here a week or so ago.

You also bypass the features of other Paragon Paths that are very attractive. There are certainly more powerful or more flavorful paragon paths out there. My Paladin would have been a Scion of Arkhosia.

So while I see that the text of this power might make it seem overpowered, I'd contend that house ruling it should be saved until you have encountered a problem in your own game. Don't gimp something without giving it a chance first.

Jay