Certain Justice - Megaoverpowered?

So, taking this power means a dramatic playshift in how you play a Paladin. You lose some of the utility of marking at a distance. In most fights, you will keep one mook in isolation until it is dead. You become Avenger-like in that sense.
Jay

First and foremost: thank you for answering. I really dont want to be a pest, nd I was hoping I was mistaken, hence I insist a bit more. ;)

Why Avenger style? After divine power (even before actually)a paladin have a ton of ranged/close powers, very simmilar to a laser cleric, being able to cover most of a 10x10 feet room for example, just by staying the middle. Its easy to keep someone marked, dazed, weakenned and technically isolated if you want. At least seems to me. In the worst case scenarion the paladin can use a crossbow and shoot the monster at 20 squares away.

The *only* time this power seems abuable is in solo fights. The counter to this is the fact that many solos would have an easy time breaking this mark.
Jay

Please enligten me (no sarcasm here), how can the solos easily get rid from the mark? Remmembering that the party will be there as well, slowing, immobilizing etc etc etc as well.

Thanks in advance.
 

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I guess I am considering melee Paladins, since this is a melee power. With DP introducing an at-will melee for Cha Paladins, this Path is suddenly a lot more viable for a Cha Paladin, one who is likely to have more ranged abilities.

Yes, I agree that if you are a minmaxer, someone who delights in gaming the system and exploiting holes, this power can be too much. *Most* folks won't.

This is all coming down to my intense dislike of prejudging things broken. DM's who have Word documents detailing rules, powers, classes, and feats that they have 'altered' without ever seeing them in action. I believe in giving your players the benefit of the doubt. I think that in most cases this PP will be taken by a Melee Paladin. They are Weapon keyword powers, after all.

If, as you suggest, a Paladin were to sit back and plink away with a crossbow, he has just imposed a status effect on himself. The, "may only used ranged basic attack as long as this creature is marked" effect. In most encounters, where 1 monster=1 PC, this is a fair trade. Especially since no Paladin I know has the Dex to pull this off and hit reliably.

And regarding solos. DMG Guidelines suggest giving solos multiple opportunities to act, and creating situations where they get actions above and beyond 1 standard, move, and minor. All of the Solos that I have encountered have had multiple methods of applying status effects that would invalidate this mark. Forced movement, stuns/dazes or the prone condition. Again, this might not be the case in 100% of the Solo statblocks, but it is my experience that this is a general rule.

To sum up:
- I agree that it could be misused.
- I would like to give players the benefit of the doubt.
- Most Solos can handle themselves.
- Megaoverpowered is overstating things.

Jay
 


First and foremost: thank you for answering. I really dont want to be a pest, nd I was hoping I was mistaken, hence I insist a bit more. ;)

Why Avenger style? After divine power (even before actually)a paladin have a ton of ranged/close powers, very simmilar to a laser cleric, being able to cover most of a 10x10 feet room for example, just by staying the middle. Its easy to keep someone marked, dazed, weakenned and technically isolated if you want. At least seems to me. In the worst case scenarion the paladin can use a crossbow and shoot the monster at 20 squares away.



Please enligten me (no sarcasm here), how can the solos easily get rid from the mark? Remmembering that the party will be there as well, slowing, immobilizing etc etc etc as well.

Thanks in advance.
If the Paladin is stunned or unconscious, he is unable to attack the monster.

The thing is to look at Paragon-tier solos and see which ones can break the mark.
 

This is all coming down to my intense dislike of prejudging things broken. DM's who have Word documents detailing rules, powers, classes, and feats that they have 'altered' without ever seeing them in action. I believe in giving your players the benefit of the doubt. I think that in most cases this PP will be taken by a Melee Paladin. They are Weapon keyword powers, after all.

If players were perfectly amenable to altering options that they have been using in play, "trying things out" would be easier to do. I've seen some horrendously overpowered characters in non-4e games, who were recognized as such by the group, presumably because the discord that would be created by forcibly returning the character to a reasonable power level would be too severe.

WotC has issued a lot of errata for 4e and much of it has lined up on the same problematic issues identified by DMs already. That, say, Bloodclaw Weapons haven't been errata'd yet (it seems likely they will be in the future) is no reason to let them run rampant in the meantime. Individual DMs can and I'm sure some do go overboard on this stuff, but there are good reasons to spell this out in advance.

And regarding solos. DMG Guidelines suggest giving solos multiple opportunities to act, and creating situations where they get actions above and beyond 1 standard, move, and minor. All of the Solos that I have encountered have had multiple methods of applying status effects that would invalidate this mark. Forced movement, stuns/dazes or the prone condition. Again, this might not be the case in 100% of the Solo statblocks, but it is my experience that this is a general rule.

Forced movement isn't going to invalidate the mark on its own; forced movement will leave a solo monster close enough to be within javelin range. Prone won't really do the trick either; the Paladin can still pull out a Javelin- it's inconvenient to do so while prone, but maintaining Dazed + Weakened on a solo is clearly worth it. Looking at MM1 solos in the 11-15 range, the Hydra can't do anything of note about it, but it's a terribly designed solo so it's not a great example. The Dragons in that range have Fearful Presence and maybe one other ability that can negate it. Fearful Presence is an encounter power, though, and using it to defend against Certain Justice requires saving it for that occurrence.

If you can alter the way you run a game significantly, so that a potential problem issue goes away, that doesn't mean that the issue isn't a problem. For example, someone who lives near an airport may spend money sound-proofing his house. Let's say he does so and the airplane noise becomes imperceptible. It doesn't follow that the noise from airplanes isn't a problem- he had to spend money, which he wouldn't have had to spend if the airplane noise wasn't present, to address the issue.

Analogously, altering the way you run a game significantly is a cost in and of itself. I'd say that having the dragon save Fearful Presence to try to escape from Certain Justice is rather significant, given that it involves the GM metagaming his major villain's actions to precise knowledge of how his character's powers, which haven't even been used yet in he encounter, operate (and if Fearful Presence fails, many dragons have no solution besides flying >20 squares away).

To sum up:
- I agree that it could be misused.
- I would like to give players the benefit of the doubt.
- Most Solos can handle themselves.
- Megaoverpowered is overstating things.

Jay

If you have players who take in on themselves to avoid balance problems, game balance issues would be much less severe in general. I'm not so pessimistic to think that this applies to only a tiny minority of players, but I'm not so optimistic to think it's an overwhelming majority either.
 

Persistent Challenge solves the dragon fear issue anyhow - only stunned for 1 round, and persistent lets you get past that.
 

There are 83 Solos on the DDI Compendioum between 11th and 21st level. There was no way on earth I was going to examine each of those, so I settled for a random 1/4 of them.

Each one had an easy way to break this problem. Either Daze/Prone/push, Stun, Daze/Push/Move, Breaking line of sight or effect...

If you play regularly with people who cheese this stuff up, people that actually play those named builds on the charop forums and actively seek out broken things, then I am sorry. I get the feeling most groups aren't like that at all.

Jay
 

Turtlejay... which solos did you look at? And did you remember you were dazed? Cause 'daze/push/move' sounds unlikely.

Breaking line of effect also is pretty unlikely.

I guess out of idle curiosity I'll load up a couple dozen solos of paragon tier and see what I get, but I find it actually ludicrous that _all_ of the ones you looked at had a method. Especially considering persistent challenge, but even without it.

All the paladin has to do is end his move next to the solo or attack it. Whether that's a throwing shield, thrown javelin, giant's glove throw, crawling or running next to, or whatever.

So, prone and dazed and only 1 square away is insufficient. Heck, in a lot of fights prone and dazed and less than a move away is insufficient (stand, AP charge or knight's move stand, charge or just crawl as your action).
 

So since a lot of the solos are named dragons (from modules or whatever) i looked at the generic dragons. Dragonfear stuns which could break the mark. Remeber, solos have AP's:

- Black Dragon - With Cloud of Darkness can break line of sight, making it impossible to tell if the Paladin ends adjacent.

- Gray Dragon - Basic attack immobilizes and is reach 2, breath weapon immobilizes and pushes.

- Green Dragon - Flyby attack, breath weapon slows, luring glare slides.

- Purple Dragon - Dominate at will, daze (with possible slide) on breath weapon.

- Blue Dragon - Push+Prone at will.

- Copper Dragon - Attack+shift at will, flyby attack.

- Shadow Dragon - Globes of Darkness break line of sight.

- Mirage Dragon - At will has unconscious as possible effect, breath weapon fear effect would break the mark.

- Brown Dragon - Can blind at will, block line of sight, and turn into freaking sand.

- Aspect of Tiamat - Dominate

- White Dragon - Restrain+Stun

- Tempest Dragon - Dazing aura, Slide+move at will.

- Dracolich - At will Stuns, breath weapon stuns

Dragons only make up about 1/2 of the Solos in paragon, for the others:

Borrit Crowfinger - Daze+Immobilize

Animated Carriage - Push 1+Daze (the bubble!?)

Sarshan - At will that can petrify


That is a little more than half of the Solos. There were a few Dragons (like the Gold Dragon) that have not special ability to evade this mark. There were also a few (Blue Dragon) that would probably never get this mark due to their role.

Yes, I know that some of those strategies will not get rid of the mark by themselves. But as solo monsters, they also have action points. So. . .yeah. If a Dragon *really* wants to make his mark go away, he could do it by killing the Paladin. That is what I would do, if I were a Dragon. Or an Animate Carriage.

This argument/disagreement has gotten kind of rediculous. Yes, I see where you are coming from. In a small number of encounters this power has the potential to own. The problem is that these are the encounters that we most want to matter.

Jay

ps - I got tired of this exercise. If someone else wants to wade through the solos and compare them, be my guest...
 

I guess out of idle curiosity I'll load up a couple dozen solos of paragon tier and see what I get, but I find it actually ludicrous that _all_ of the ones you looked at had a method.

Side note: This is why you should stick to all the level 11 solos, all the level 11-12 solos from XYZ books, and so on when doing these types of exercises. Or list the ones you looked at. That way other people can easily go back and look at the same monsters you looked at.

On persistent challenge: I don't have Divine Power, so I forgot about the feat (though I had heard about it coming out as one of a few notable Paladin boosters). Most Paladins of players who can evaluate feats well will have that one shortly into the Paragon tier, I'd imagine. It makes Certain Justice much harder to break.

Turtlejay said:
Gray Dragon - Basic attack immobilizes and is reach 2, breath weapon immobilizes and pushes.

Green Dragon - Flyby attack, breath weapon slows, luring glare slides.

Blue Dragon - Push+Prone at will.

- Copper Dragon - Attack+shift at will, flyby attack.

- Tempest Dragon - Dazing aura, Slide+move at will.

None of these do anything to a Paladin who can just throw a Javelin at the monster (edit- actually, the tempest might, depending on how the Aura works). Your arguments here seem to be based on not just a "melee-based Paladin", but a Paladin who doesn't have a ranged attack at all. That's not going to happen unless the player intentionally doesn't have any javelins so that his Certain Justice power isn't too strong at times (which is a clear sign of a problem; see above airplane/soundproofing example).
 
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