D&D 5E Chaladin

[pemerton]

I misspoke somewhat. I didn't mean "unbalanced" in the mechanical sense, I meant you were so rewarded for raising cha that there was never a point not to, creating a character with a superhuman scores (in the 30s near the end) while his other scores barely reached the mid- teens. Which to me created images of godlike-intellect wizards who had strength, dexterity, and charisma below most commoners.

That's what I meant by imbalance.

OK, but that's not anything special to CHA paladins - that's a generic feature of 4e. STR paladins display the same imbalance, but with STR being high and CHA low.

You could do away with all stat boosts but for the tier-based ones and you'd still have CHA paladins with 18 or 20 CHA and 12 STR.

 

[Remathilis]

OK, but that's not anything special to CHA paladins - that's a generic feature of 4e. STR paladins display the same imbalance, but with STR being high and CHA low.

You could do away with all stat boosts but for the tier-based ones and you'd still have CHA paladins with 18 or 20 CHA and 12 STR.

By the PHB, a High Str/Low Cha paladin is weak in his lay on hands and marking mechanic (which name escapes me). What you got in return was... Nothing? I wouldn't even say you got the extra feat from not taking Melee Training since you then had to sink a feat into the one that based your marking off str.

Long story short; there was no reason to ever boost both: you were always better off going Cha 30 and Str 12 or Str 30 and Cha 12. And since fundementally, a few feats later the choice came down to "do I want more carry capacity or high persusasion" I wondered if it was even worth HAVING six ability scores in the first place since they all did the exact same thing anyway...

 

[pemerton]

By the PHB, a High Str/Low Cha paladin is weak in his lay on hands and marking mechanic (which name escapes me). What you got in return was... Nothing?

LoH doesn't depend on CHA - it depends on WIS.

It's true that divine challenge is CHA and not STR based, but as you noted a feat can cover that, trading off for the feat that a CHA paladin might spend on melee training.

EDIT: Also, a STR paladin has two viable Channel Divinity powers - damage boost and bonus save - whereas for a CHA paladin the damage boost is ineffective (but the bonus save is very good, because it quickly becomes close-to-auto).

Long story short; there was no reason to ever boost both: you were always better off going Cha 30 and Str 12 or Str 30 and Cha 12.

That's not in disupte. But it's a general feature of 4e - it's not anything special to CHA paladins. And 5e exhibits the same feature - a 5e fighter has no reason ever to raise INT above the minimum, for instance, but has every reason to raise STR to 20.

I wondered if it was even worth HAVING six ability scores in the first place since they all did the exact same thing anyway...

I commented on this upthread but you didn't reply: the main function of stats in 4e is to manage non-combat (skill) resolution. The game would be better if they didn't factor into attack bonuses (but having them still affect damage would probably be OK).

 

[Manbearcat]

See, here was the problem I saw with 4e's method: I got my cake and I ate it too. In 5e, if I prioritize Cha over Str, I prioritize social skills, spells, and special abilities (lay hands) over raw combat. In 4e, I didn't have to; I got it both. I was a good diplomat, had awesome healing/smiting/defending powers, and my combat ability suffered NOTHING. (I didn't even suffer for basic attacks: thanks Melee Training!) This lead to very unbalanced characters where I sank everything into Cha (and why would I, except some Wis for riders and maybe Con for Fort and HP) and my Dex/Int/Str could be 8's for all it mattered. (The only pain is on reflex defense).

This runs back into what I wrote about above. If GMs are running games where the fictional output of mechanical resolution is demanding of secondary (anything beyond primary attack stat) ability scores (they should be), the problem you depict ceases to become a problem.

Irrelevant to specific table inclination toward genre tropes or conflict type preference, you've got all of these extremely relevant aspects of play that require some level of investment in Dex/Int/Str:

Reflex Defense
Initiative
Acrobatics
Arcana
Athletics
History
Religion
Stealth
Thievery

Those are some enormous movers and shakers generally. In my home game, Athletics is easily the most relevant skill used. A Paladin eschewing training and/or using Str as a dump stat is going suffer for it both in and out of combat. Their ability to dictate the fiction will be dramatically upended by that. I would wager that dumping that stat/skill would dramatically impact play for the negative while an extra + 1 to hit and damage would be fairly marginal by comparison. Paladins are auto-trained in Religion but without any Int at all (especially a - 1 to it), they're not going to be able to reliably pull off Religion stunts in combat or invoke neither divinity nor lore through Religion in noncombat conflict resolution. The inability to reliably pass the Medium DC in some segments of your "shtick portfolio" turns you into a liability. A poor Reflex isn't going to cost you in the "punitive condition in" arena, but it is definitely the most widely attacked defense next to AC. Your mitigation capacity in a lot of fights will fall through the floor with an ignored Reflex defense. Initiative is initiative.

Stealth and Acrobatics should definitely come up as group checks both in Skill Challenge and out of it. A PC who is an utter liability there will be a problem.

That is assuming a serviceable modicum of Wisdom and Con. If they "sink everything into Cha", they should be in an absolute world of hurt for it.

Back to specific tables though, some of this always comes down to poor GMing or at least GMing lacking in industry. Its a GM's job to put players in spots, catch-22s, offer them hard bargains, and frame them into conflicts that will force them to confront their weaknesses and see what shakes out of it. Put the PC on an island and make them do something to get out of the pickle. I think some GMs literally just don't know how to do this. If you're running a conflict, its not a pow-wow to figure out who is going to do this or who is going to do that job. Its:

"Peryatons! Bob the Paladin, you're climbing up the Northern Face of God's Summit. Jill the NPC guide who knows the way to Important Placeville just fell from the face as the Peryatons attempted to gouge her eyes. She is directly above you and falling right toward you! Quick, what do you do!"

A genre-relavant, good-faith answer would be any of the below:

1) "I hold on for all I've got with one hand and reach out to snag her with the other!" Primary Athletics check

2) "I smash my pitons into the face of the mountain and hold on with everything I've got. She is going to fall right into my chest, and as a Knight should do, I will suffer to break her fall and scoop her up in my arms. Maybe I can take a loss of a Healing Surge to move the DC down?" Primary Endurance check

3) "If we fall from this mountain there will be no hope for my allies or our cause. I offer a silent prayer to my God, hoping for an answer or intervention." This might be a Secondary Religion check at the Easy DC to augment a Primary check or it might be an outright Primary Religion check.

4) "I know of a tale just like this from the Book of Fabled Heroes. Jack McJackerton was fighting the dragon McDragonton with a princess over his shoulder, a hand full of mountain and the other full of sword. A snowy avalanche fell upon him from the fiery breath of the dragon. What did he do?! He laughed and took a swan dive for the crevasse 50 feet below him. In there he splashed down in the icy lake of McColderton which fed into a river that led them out of the mountain and back to the kingdom, a hero returned with a smooch on the cheek from the King's daughter and nary a wound except for some frostbite!" Primary History check

Or something like that. What wouldn't be kosher is something like "yeah I Intimidate/Diplomance gravity/the mountain/the space:time continuum into fixing this mess." Or, "I Bluff her into thinking she is made of rubber and she mind over matter bounces back up to me after she hits the bottom." Or, "I quickly Streetwise grease the palms of the Perytons and remind them that the Mountaineers Union doesn't take kindly to flying wolf eagles who prey on climbers...well, at least those who haven't paid their dues...it might be in their best interest to fly down at faster than terminal velocity and catch her."

 

[gyor]

There is one way a Paladin can make all thier weapon checks with Charisma, and that's by multiclassing as a Tome Pact Warlock.

Yep, a Tome Pact Warlock can take 3 cantrips from any class as her own, including Shielliegieh, which allows you to enchant a club or staff of wood to use your casting stat instead of strength. Usually via feat or the druid class that stat is Wisdom, but in this rare case the Tomelock can use her normal casting stat Charisma. Plus the weapon damage die increases to 1d8.

So for 3 levels in warlock a Paladin can use Charisma as thier attack stat, plus some other benifits of course. A 1D8 Club and Duellist Fighting Style, and using your Charisma as your attack stat isn't bad. Unfortunitely it takes time and levels for this to work.