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D&D 5E CHALLENGE: Change one thing about 5e

Harzel

Adventurer
In addition, because of these prerequisites:
- you are allowed to play a single class Wizard with 3 Intelligence
- but you are disallowed to play a multiclass Wizard with 12 Intelligence if you didn't start as a Wizard
- but you are allowed to play a multiclass Wizard with 3 Intelligence if you didn't start as a Wizard

I assume one of these "didn't"s is supposed to be a "did". In any case, the last bullet is incorrect - every multiclass Wizard must have a 13 or greater INT.

This sort of thing is simply an insult to reason.

Um...how closely have you scrutinized the rest of the rules?

The solution is simple:

- Remove multiclassing prerequisites
- Let all equipment (weapons, armors, shields, tools) proficiencies from all classes stack
- Let skill proficiencies from all classes overlap in number

What about saving throw proficiencies?.
 

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fromthe1980s

First Post
Too many classes with magic. Spell casting is too common. Eliminate EK, AT, W4E, and make Ranger and Paladin spell-less. Give some classes abilities that function like spells, create new feats that function like spells, if you want, but don't make everyone a caster.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Too many classes with magic. Spell casting is too common. Eliminate EK, AT, W4E, and make Ranger and Paladin spell-less. Give some classes abilities that function like spells, create new feats that function like spells, if you want, but don't make everyone a caster.

Although I like the idea of a spell-less ranger, the paladin doesn't make as much sense at this point. However, a big change is when they gain spellcasting abilities. I would prefer that they gain them later on as they used to. That might address some of your concerns.

I also rewrote the bard in my campaign using the Warlock mechanics as a template. So they only gain up to 5th level spells. I did this for the same reason - I think bards should have spells, but not up to 9th level.
 

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
Bounded Accuracy. I'd adjust the range of ACs in Bounded Accuracy. I might hardcap AC. Right now the problems I'm having with Bounded Accuracy:

1. PC AC: If you're not wearing plate armor, you're way too easy to hit, especially casters. With lower hit points and lower AC, you become too soft a target with very limited means to protect yourself other than pure avoidance. With the concentration mechanic, avoidance is much more difficult to come by. Given the lack of magical items for boosting AC in a substantial way, this makes soft target casters and light armor wearers easy targets in a game focused solely on hit point reduction. It makes it hard to design challenges from a DM standpoint. If the monster goes after the caster or light armor wearer, it will kill that PC very quickly making the class unattractive. It makes players focus on classes that allow medium to heavy armor along with casting and ranged once they see how weak AC dramatically affects survivablity.

This in comparison to PCs getting ACs to nearly 30 in plate armor with magic. The gods help you if you hand out magic armor. An Eldritch Knight can get his AC into the mid to high 20s fairly easily and clerics and paladins can get to 23 with fair ease. This creates a large discrepancy in AC between the low AC and high AC classes. This becomes far worse if you allow multiclassing.

I think they should have put a hard cap on PC AC to prevent this wide a disrepancy between classes.

2. Weak Monsters. Monster AC is too low. Even using the base game, the bless spell along with multiple abilities providing advantage make monsters too easy to hit. Once you get past about level 5 picking up an ability bonus and one boost in proficiency bonus along with a near constant bless possible, monster AC becomes a poor form of protection.

Perhaps this is intended to speed up combat, but I find the Bounded Accuracy system is bit hit or miss. I think the variability in the AC range needs to be tightened up and capped.
 

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
Problem: Expertise breaks bounded accuracy. A lot. Like a whole lot. For example, it's easy to build a rogue with a Stealth modifier higher than most enemies' passive Perceptions.

When there are challenges that some party members can't succeed at and others can't fail at, this makes it hard for the DM to build appropriate challenges for the whole party, and also can discourage players from participating. This is why I like bounded accuracy so much. (I know there are some people who feel otherwise, but screw 'em, this thread is about what I would fix about 5E.)

Solution: Bounded accuracy works well in combat because, even though everybody's attack bonus is about the same, the consequences of their attacks differ: different damage, range, damage types, special conditions, etc. But the outcome of skill checks is ill-defined; all we have is the modifier, so for a character to be better, they must have a higher modifier. Thus our solution must be to somehow introduce qualitative changes to skill checks.

Ability Check Criticals. When you roll an ability check, if the check succeeds, and you roll a natural 20, you get a critical result. If you are adding your proficiency to the check, and the check succeeds, then you get a critical result on a roll of 19-20.

A critical result gets the character the best possible outcome. It may grant bonuses above and beyond what the character was seeking. As a guideline, here are some things appropriate to a critical result.
  • The check takes less than the normal time. For example, a lock that might take several rounds to pick only takes 1 round.
  • The check affects more targets than expected. For example, intimidation aimed at only a single character winds up intimidating many.
  • The check produces more materials than necessary. For example, instead of finding food for 5 people, the character finds food for 10 people.
  • The character overcomes restrictions connected to the check. For example, if a check allows climbing at half speed, the character instead climbs at full speed.
  • The character, or an ally, automatically succeeds at some future check. For example, if three successes are needed to research the location of a lost treasure, the skill check result counts as two of them.
  • The character, or an ally, gains advantage on one or more future checks. For example, an attempt at deception is so successful that future attempts to sway those targets are at advantage.

Expertise. When you have Expertise in a skill (or tool), any success on a skill check is a critical result.

Why it Works: Skill and ability checks are open-ended, and defining them in clear terms like combat checks would require a LOT of text. Critical results are an equally open-ended alternative. Plus, D&D has needed degrees-of-success for a long time.

Allowing Expertise to grant critical results on any success seems powerful. BUT: It doesn't increase your likelyhood of success at all. The rogue with Stealth Expertise is just as likely to succeed as the ranger with Stealth proficiency. Their failure is equally bad: they get spotted. But when the ranger succeeds, he's just hidden. When the rogue succeeds, maybe he hides as a free action; or maybe he can hide despite inadequate cover; or maybe he figures out a good hiding place, granting the rest of the party advantage on their hide attempts.

So true for Perception and Stealth.
 

ArchfiendBobbie

First Post
Bounded Accuracy. I'd adjust the range of ACs in Bounded Accuracy. I might hardcap AC. Right now the problems I'm having with Bounded Accuracy:

1. PC AC: If you're not wearing plate armor, you're way too easy to hit, especially casters. With lower hit points and lower AC, you become too soft a target with very limited means to protect yourself other than pure avoidance. With the concentration mechanic, avoidance is much more difficult to come by. Given the lack of magical items for boosting AC in a substantial way, this makes soft target casters and light armor wearers easy targets in a game focused solely on hit point reduction. It makes it hard to design challenges from a DM standpoint. If the monster goes after the caster or light armor wearer, it will kill that PC very quickly making the class unattractive. It makes players focus on classes that allow medium to heavy armor along with casting and ranged once they see how weak AC dramatically affects survivablity.

This in comparison to PCs getting ACs to nearly 30 in plate armor with magic. The gods help you if you hand out magic armor. An Eldritch Knight can get his AC into the mid to high 20s fairly easily and clerics and paladins can get to 23 with fair ease. This creates a large discrepancy in AC between the low AC and high AC classes. This becomes far worse if you allow multiclassing.

I think they should have put a hard cap on PC AC to prevent this wide a disrepancy between classes.

An elf sorcerer can manage a level 1 AC of 16 (13 base + 3 dex bonus) with an option to increase it to 21 (shield spell) for one round. With Bracers of Defense (+2), Cloak of Protection (+1), and a dancing blade (+3) that sorcerer can manage an AC of 22 with an option to increase it to 27 without spending any attribute points on dexterity.

A fighter, on the other hand, can manage to wear plate armor (AC of 18) with an enhancement bonus (+3), a dancing blade (+3), and a Cloak of Protection (+1) to get an AC of 25. If they take the Defense fighting stance (+1), they can get it at 26. This puts sorcerers and fighters pretty much equal for AC.

How did you get 30 using the criteria you mentioned? I'm asking because the rules of attunement limit you to 3 attunement magical items, and all AC boosting magical items require attunement.
 

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
An elf sorcerer can manage a level 1 AC of 16 (13 base + 3 dex bonus) with an option to increase it to 21 (shield spell) for one round. With Bracers of Defense (+2), Cloak of Protection (+1), and a dancing blade (+3) that sorcerer can manage an AC of 22 with an option to increase it to 27 without spending any attribute points on dexterity.

A fighter, on the other hand, can manage to wear plate armor (AC of 18) with an enhancement bonus (+3), a dancing blade (+3), and a Cloak of Protection (+1) to get an AC of 25. If they take the Defense fighting stance (+1), they can get it at 26. This puts sorcerers and fighters pretty much equal for AC.

How did you get 30 using the criteria you mentioned? I'm asking because the rules of attunement limit you to 3 attunement magical items, and all AC boosting magical items require attunement.

Take the fighter you just made, factor in that his magic armor doesn't take an attunement slot, then factor in the shield spell. That 26 goes to a 31 where as Mr. Sorcerer is 4 points behind at 27. The sorcerer had to use all his attunement slots on defensive magic items to come close to equalling the fighter.

Let's take away the magic. Now your sorcerer has a 21 if he has a 16 dex and using the shield spell. While your Eldritch Night has a 21 without sheild and 26 with shield.

There's really no comparison. A wizard/sorcerer isn't going to spend all his attunement slots on defensive magic items. I've seen plenty of paladins and fighters focus on defense. A paladin with plate, shield, defensive style, and shield of faith has a 23. Cleric can do the same thing.

A fighter gets to focus stat bonuses on STr and Con. Whereas a dex-focused sorcerer would have to focus on Dex and Cha with Con a third to keep up. He's going to have less hit points and a lower AC more often.

Are you sure armor requires attunement? I don't have my book on me, but I remember basic magic armor and shield not requiring attunement.
 

ArchfiendBobbie

First Post
Take the fighter you just made, factor in that his magic armor doesn't take an attunement slot, then factor in the shield spell. That 26 goes to a 31 where as Mr. Sorcerer is 4 points behind at 27. The sorcerer had to use all his attunement slots on defensive magic items to come close to equalling the fighter.

Let's take away the magic. Now your sorcerer has a 21 if he has a 16 dex and using the shield spell. While your Eldritch Night has a 21 without sheild and 26 with shield.

There's really no comparison. A wizard/sorcerer isn't going to spend all his attunement slots on defensive magic items. I've seen plenty of paladins and fighters focus on defense. A paladin with plate, shield, defensive style, and shield of faith has a 23. Cleric can do the same thing.

A fighter gets to focus stat bonuses on STr and Con. Whereas a dex-focused sorcerer would have to focus on Dex and Cha with Con a third to keep up. He's going to have less hit points and a lower AC more often.

Are you sure armor requires attunement? I don't have my book on me, but I remember basic magic armor and shield not requiring attunement.

Nope, you're right. My mistake. I'm glad I asked!

It requiring attunement is a houserule at my table, and one we've used since 5E came out. I forgot it wasn't an official rule.
 


dave2008

Legend
There's really no comparison. A wizard/sorcerer isn't going to spend all his attunement slots on defensive magic items. .

No, a wizard can get quite good defenses with rings, robes, & staffs - and it is not all defensive. That being said I have yet to hand out magic armor beyond +1 in 5e
 

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