Challenge: Pure core wizard melee combatant

[Thanee]

(Thanee: How are you casting tenser's transformation in hydra form? )

Good question...

It was more like a last-second change, adding in Tenser's Transformation.

But there's little, that cannot be handled with Contingency (but then we would need a wizard instead of a sorcerer, of course).

Bye
Thanee

 

[SgtHulka]

The Problem with Polymorph

I'm pretty sure the current interpretation of Polymorph doesn't allow the Hydra trick. I think it's in the "rules of the game" article describing polymorph (pre-shapechange errata). Iirc, the interpretation is based on the fact that the 5+ heads aren't treated as secondary weapons in any way (i.e. there's no reduction in attack or damage and no multi-attack feat) so they aren't "normal gross physical qualities" and they also aren't defined in the Special Attacks section as Extraordinary Abilities so they are some undefined special ability that is not provided by Polymorph.

The problem with a dwarf polymorphing into an Annis Hag is that the dwarf uses so many hit points in the transformation. The Annis Hag has only a 15 Con.

Starting with Enlarge Person to Enlarge your weapon (say, a greatsword) and then immediately polymorphing into a Hill Giant might be more effective. You don't get Improved Grab, which is a huge bummer, but you keep a good Armor Class, keep your 18 con (actually boosting to 19), and now have reach with a base damage of 3d6+10. With Greater Mage Armor your AC is 23 (+9 nat, +6 mage armor, -1 Dex, -1 Size). If you have a quickened shield you could boost it to 27.

That takes two rounds of buffing, though, and by the time you're that level you could very well be dead before that two rounds is up.

Another way to go might be with touch spells instead. A maximized shocking grasp does 30 hit points and gives a bonus against guys in metal armor. Empowered Vampiric Touches could be interesting, too. With Alter Self you could gain a respectable AC without losing all your nifty magic items (like headband of intellect).

 

[SgtHulka]

Or, with quickened true strike, you might be able to get away with wearing armor even if you're not proficient.

 

[Iku Rex]

I'm pretty sure the current interpretation of Polymorph doesn't allow the Hydra trick. I think it's in the "rules of the game" article describing polymorph (pre-shapechange errata).

There's no such ruling.

The problem with a dwarf polymorphing into an Annis Hag is that the dwarf uses so many hit points in the transformation. The Annis Hag has only a 15 Con.

The dwarf's hit points remain the same. The only drawback is a reduced Fort save.

Starting with Enlarge Person to Enlarge your weapon (say, a greatsword) and then immediately polymorphing into a Hill Giant might be more effective. You don't get Improved Grab, which is a huge bummer, but you keep a good Armor Class, keep your 18 con (actually boosting to 19), and now have reach with a base damage of 3d6+10. With Greater Mage Armor your AC is 23 (+9 nat, +6 mage armor, -1 Dex, -1 Size). If you have a quickened shield you could boost it to 27.

If you're worried about the Con a troll is probably better (bite attack, better Dex and Con than hill giant), as is the treant. (And greater mage armor isn't core.)

That takes two rounds of buffing, though, and by the time you're that level you could very well be dead before that two rounds is up.

You can run though quite a few "dungeon rooms" in 12 minutes, or 24 minutes for an extended spell. The trick when playing a buff-reliant caster is too cast as many spells as you can before the battle begins.

Another way to go might be with touch spells instead. A maximized shocking grasp does 30 hit points and gives a bonus against guys in metal armor. Empowered Vampiric Touches could be interesting, too. With Alter Self you could gain a respectable AC without losing all your nifty magic items (like headband of intellect).

Loosing magic items is only an issue for non-humanoid shapes. (In fact, according to RotG all items resize with polymorph, where possible [humanoid shape]. This is contradicted by the FAQ though, which IIRC says that only magic clothing and jewlery resizes.)

 

[Ilium]

Wow, lots of responses. Sorry I left out a couple of things originally:

28 point buy
As Thanee said in post #10, I meant DMG/MM/PHB only, and just mentioned no psionics because it is in some online SRDs and I was trying to avoid confusion. Guess I failed.

You know, I didn't even think of polymorphing. The polymorph-based builds are very interesting, but so dependent on what critters are in the campaign that I would prefer to avoid them. Also they get into the whole pre-errata/post-errata question. I suppose it's definitely the best way to be a melee monster, though (literally).

KarinsDad/green_slime: my build was actually a human who put two of his level bumps into Dex to get it to 16. His INT is only 17.

DannyAlcatraz: Whirling Blade is a favorite of mine, but I'm trying to do this core only.

Iku Rex: Nice write-up, thanks. I had actually included Enlarge Person in my version, but decided the extra damage wasn't worth the penalty to hit. On the other hand, it does give you nice battlefield control.

Moritheil: Yep, core only, sorry. Persistence may not be core, but Contingency is, so I was using that to put up some of the buffs automatically.

Jeffman: Nice write-up, too. Thanks. But as Moritheil points out, Greater Mirror Image is, I think, in the PHB II. Regardless, most everything else looks good. Excellent suggestion.

jrdeggman: My version did not have a big strength (it's 10). He has a 16 dex and Weapon Finesse (which was the main reason for the spiked chain, actually). The +3 on damage comes from Bull's Strength (14 Str) x 1.5 cause it's a two-handed weapon. I actually forgot to give him a masterwork weapon.

Kerbarin: My version couldn't take Power Attack because of the aforementioned low strength. Good spell suggestions, thanks.

Sgthulka: Good suggestions, thanks.

Wow. Thanks everybody. I'm trying to put together a surprise for my group. I do have several splatbooks and was considering using a Duskblade for this role, but I think if I pick and choose from what's here I can get somebody who will really surprise the group.

All this came out of my realization that there are really two ways to advance a character in D&D: Levels and "everything else" (being feats, skills, etc.). I wondered if it would be possible to make a character who filled two roles fairly well while taking only a single class. I think this proves it is, at least for a "fighter"/mage type.

 

[irdeggman]

jrdeggman: My version did not have a big strength (it's 10). He has a 16 dex and Weapon Finesse (which was the main reason for the spiked chain, actually). The +3 on damage comes from Bull's Strength (14 Str) x 1.5 cause it's a two-handed weapon. I actually forgot to give him a masterwork weapon.

Ahh but you said pre buff full attack of +11/+6.

Wizard BAB is +6 therefore you need another +5.

Weapon finesse lets you use yuor Dex for the attack bonus (so that is +3) so that gives a +9, still need another +2. Weapon focus gives you a +1, for a total of +10 still one shy.

Can't take Greater Weapon Focus (need fighter level 8 to qualify).

So I still count 1 shy on full attack bonus, without buffs.

 

[Thanee]

The polymorph-based builds are very interesting, but so dependent on what critters are in the campaign that I would prefer to avoid them. Also they get into the whole pre-errata/post-errata question.

There is no Polymorph errata. WotC has semi-officially given up on that topic.

I suppose it's definitely the best way to be a melee monster, though (literally).

Yep, that's why the spell is so 'problematic'.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Ilium]

Ahh but you said pre buff full attack of +11/+6.

Wizard BAB is +6 therefore you need another +5.

Weapon finesse lets you use yuor Dex for the attack bonus (so that is +3) so that gives a +9, still need another +2. Weapon focus gives you a +1, for a total of +10 still one shy.

Can't take Greater Weapon Focus (need fighter level 8 to qualify).

So I still count 1 shy on full attack bonus, without buffs.

I don't have the file here to check, I must have made a math error. It's been known to happen.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

A sculpted Whirling Blade is a scary thought with all the crazy non-core melee Sor/Wiz builds that are possible. I checked, though, and I don't think it would work. Whirling Blade has "Effect: 60-ft. line" rather than "Area: 60-ft. line", so it's not actually an area spell.

I was curious about it myself and asked about it in my thread: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=168811

According to Hypersmurf, "line" is one of the areas with which Sculpt Spell should work- I'd check it out again, but one of my fellow players just borrowed my Complete books for the week (we game again next Saturday, and he has some stuff to suss out).

 

[kerbarian]

I was curious about it myself and asked about it in my thread: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=168811

According to Hypersmurf, "line" is one of the areas with which Sculpt Spell should work- I'd check it out again, but one of my fellow players just borrowed my Complete books for the week (we game again next Saturday, and he has some stuff to suss out).

Yes, sculpt spell works on spells with an area of "line", like lightning bolt. However, whirling blade isn't actually an area spell at all, so it doesn't meet the first requirement for sculpt spell. It makes more sense as an area spell, IMO (how exactly is a 60-ft. line an "effect"?), so it could be house ruled to work with sculpt spell. It's pretty clear as written, though.