Challenging Challenge Ratings...again

Cheiromancer · Nov 1, 2006

I calculate the challenge of an encounter by squaring the ECLs of the monsters and adding them up. Then I do the same thing for the players. An equal challenge encounter should be 75 xp per character level. Twice the challenge gives twice the xp, and so on.

So if a party of 4 10th level characters (challenge 400) encounter a balor (challenge 900) they should get 2.25 * 75 * 10 = 1687 xp each. With a base of 100 xp for an equal challenge encounter that would be 2250 xp each.

The balor would actually be more challenging than the numbers indicate because of its pesky blasphemy ability, which would kill the entire party with no save. I assume the party fights in silence, and with protection from evil to protect against being dominated. Although a greater dispel magic would take these out; you could ready attacks against its SLAs, I suppose. Still looks like a tough fight. I wonder if the balor should be challenge 1089 (33 squared).

Ltheb Silverfrond · Nov 1, 2006

Cheiromancer said:
I calculate the challenge of an encounter by squaring the ECLs of the monsters and adding them up. Then I do the same thing for the players. An equal challenge encounter should be 75 xp per character level. Twice the challenge gives twice the xp, and so on.

So if a party of 4 10th level characters (challenge 400) encounter a balor (challenge 900) they should get 2.25 * 75 * 10 = 1687 xp each. With a base of 100 xp for an equal challenge encounter that would be 2250 xp each.

The balor would actually be more challenging than the numbers indicate because of its pesky blasphemy ability, which would kill the entire party with no save. I assume the party fights in silence, and with protection from evil to protect against being dominated. Although a greater dispel magic would take these out; you could ready attacks against its SLAs, I suppose. Still looks like a tough fight. I wonder if the balor should be challenge 1089 (33 squared).

Cool idea. I like that system.
I also found it funny in 3.0 they gave almost every lower-planar monster Blasphemy at will, which dazed anyone who isn't evil, no save, in 3.0.
Balor strategy: Round 1 - Summon Marilith, Use blasphemy. Round 2+: Use blasphemy, Laugh.
Thankfully, my DM never did this to us. (He did worse things at that level, like a Balor with a permenent Contingent Heal spell on itself for if it was at less that 1 HP. So you had to take it from >1 to <-10 in one hit)

Upper_Krust · Nov 2, 2006

Hiya mate!

Cheiromancer said:
I calculate the challenge of an encounter by squaring the ECLs of the monsters and adding them up. Then I do the same thing for the players. An equal challenge encounter should be 75 xp per character level. Twice the challenge gives twice the xp, and so on.

So if a party of 4 10th level characters (challenge 400) encounter a balor (challenge 900) they should get 2.25 * 75 * 10 = 1687 xp each. With a base of 100 xp for an equal challenge encounter that would be 2250 xp each.

The balor would actually be more challenging than the numbers indicate because of its pesky blasphemy ability, which would kill the entire party with no save. I assume the party fights in silence, and with protection from evil to protect against being dominated. Although a greater dispel magic would take these out; you could ready attacks against its SLAs, I suppose. Still looks like a tough fight. I wonder if the balor should be challenge 1089 (33 squared).

ECL 30 according to v6.

One of the things I determined over at the WotC boards was that there are some skewed results at non-epic levels.

So when using

Low-level characters, use EL +1
Mid-level characters - EL as per usual
High-level characters - use EL -1

Another thing is to always use at least the averages rounded up, otherwise lower the opponent EL by 1.

e.g. A typical party of 4-5 means at least 4.5 and therefore 5.

Cheiromancer · Nov 3, 2006

Remind me what you mean by low-level, etc.? Low-level is under 40th level, right?

You decided to extend the silver rule past 20 HD, didn't you? I think that's what you were telling me in IM. Could you explain to me how that party of 10th level characters is supposed to take out a balor? What with at-will blasphemy, greater dispel magic and domination I think they are toast.

I don't use EL. But if CR x 2 = EL +4, then EL+1 is equivalent to increasing the size of the group by 50%, right? E.g. from 4-5 to 7.

Ltheb Silverfrond · Nov 3, 2006

Yep, the Balor is certainly a toughie, but not impossible. While blasphemy is a strong option, 10th level characters have access to Deathward and Silence, as mentioned. Really it is about tieing up the Balor's actions. Make it seem more profitable to do something other than use blasphemy. In all, its about tricking the poor thing.

Get it to full-attack a fighter type, then blast it to bits with Everything. Depending on the group make up and the sourcebooks in use, the possibility of success varies.
And defeating a Balor doesn't always mean killing it. Banishment works fine too. If it happens to be on the prime material plane, stopping its plan or banishing it work nicely. (Just be prepared for revenge at an inconvenient time, like while resting after slaying a dragon)
A CR twice that of the average level of a PC means there is a very good chance of them dieing, and a slim chance of the PCs winning, but the possibility exists.

Pssthpok · Nov 3, 2006

UK,
How are you?
I have another conundrum... which
Stop me at any point where I mess up...

Random Intermediate Deity (InDy); 68 HD.

Challenge Rating and Encounter Level:
68 HD = CR (*2/3) 45 + 40 (w/equipment) = CR 85. alternatively CR 113 sans the 2/3 factor; which method do I use to determine InDy's CR?

Now, looking at the assumed CRs versus a 8-man party of 30th-level characters we find that InDy proves to be an unpredictable challenge... even though his AC easily breaks 100, his attacks the same, and if fine-tuned can have Bardic suggestion save DCs well over 100 as well as 10 15th-level spells per day.

Using CR 85 we get an EL 26...
Compare to an 8 person party of 30th-level builds:
-using Class Levels to determine EL ala v5.: 8 30th-level characters (EL 26) treat him as an EL +/-0 (i.e. 300 XP/HD, or 9000 XP each)
-using Class Levels summed and divided to determine PEL ala v4.: 8 30th-level characters (PEL 32) treat InDy as a PEL -6 (i.e. 37.5 XP/HD, or 1125 XP)

Which of the above methods is correct? EL or PEL?

Using CR 113 we get an EL 28... marginally more realistic, but not as drastically as I should imagine.
Using EL we get 18,000 XP per character with a victory.
Using PEL we get a standard encounter (75 XP/HD, or 2250 XP) with a victory.

In your debate on WotC, you stated many times that CR equals ECL, but the templates in Ascension do not support this statement, hence the different entries for CR and ECL modifiers granted by the template. I'll use ECL in place of CR though, to see if it pegs InDy's relative power sufficiently above a party of twice-as-many-as-normal PCs of less than half InDy's HD, and almost 1/3 of his CR... divine ranks and abilities not withstanding.

Effective Character Level and Encounter Level:
68 HD + 60 (w/equipment) = ECL 128. Assuming that ECL equals CR, this makes InDy an EL 29... hmph.

What's wrong with this picture? Should PEL be completely disregarded? On the low end, it doesn't make sense to use EL for PCs since the yields are so high, but in this case it seems only fair to use EL since otherwise the PCs get practically nothing for defeating a creature 38 levels and 12 divine ranks over them.
Furthermore, why, if CR = ECL, are there separate modifiers for these numbers in the templates?
Am I doing something wrong?

Upper_Krust · Nov 4, 2006

Hiya mate!

Cheiromancer said:
Remind me what you mean by low-level, etc.? Low-level is under 40th level, right?

Low = 1-6
Mid = 7-12
High = 13-20
Low-Epic = 21-40
Mid-Epic = 41-80
High-Epic = 81-160

Cheiromancer said:
You decided to extend the silver rule past 20 HD, didn't you? I think that's what you were telling me in IM.

Yes. (past 20 ECL, just to clarify)

Cheiromancer said:
Could you explain to me how that party of 10th level characters is supposed to take out a balor? What with at-will blasphemy, greater dispel magic and domination I think they are toast.

Get lucky!

Depends on the party make up to be fair.

Lets be honest it is a nightmare encounter for the 10th-level party, the odds are against them. Personally I would try and hit it with as many save effects as possible (Baleful Polymorph, Arrows of Slaying). Although Will save based effects would have the best chance (so things like Charm Monster would be okay). Even though it will make the save more often than not, you always have a chance. Try and take it on at range if possible and spread your forces out so they won't get caught by area effect spells.

At best I think you would have a total 5% chance of penetrating its SR and getting it to fail its save. so its a longshot.

Win initiative would be another plus. Chances are you could lose a character a round.

If you have prep time, use buffs, have death ward and free action cast.

The win is possible, just not probable.

Cheiromancer said:
I don't use EL. But if CR x 2 = EL +4, then EL+1 is equivalent to increasing the size of the group by 50%, right? E.g. from 4-5 to 7.

Yes.

Upper_Krust · Nov 4, 2006

Hiya mate!

Pssthpok said:
UK,
How are you?

Usual.

Pssthpok said:
I have another conundrum... which
Stop me at any point where I mess up...

Random Intermediate Deity (InDy); 68 HD.

Challenge Rating and Encounter Level:
68 HD = CR (*2/3) 45 + 40 (w/equipment) = CR 85. alternatively CR 113 sans the 2/3 factor; which method do I use to determine InDy's CR?

Okay, where does this alternate CR come from?

68 HD intermediated Deity = ECL 128 = CR 85.

Where does CR 113 come from?

Pssthpok said:
Now, looking at the assumed CRs versus a 8-man party of 30th-level characters we find that InDy proves to be an unpredictable challenge... even though his AC easily breaks 100, his attacks the same, and if fine-tuned can have Bardic suggestion save DCs well over 100 as well as 10 15th-level spells per day.

Okay.

Pssthpok said:
Using CR 85 we get an EL 26...
Compare to an 8 person party of 30th-level builds:

Well firstly, remember that when using multiple characters always use at least the average and round any fractions up.

So when the spread says 8-11 characters, you should always use at least 10.

Pssthpok said:
-using Class Levels to determine EL ala v5.: 8 30th-level characters (EL 26) treat him as an EL +/-0 (i.e. 300 XP/HD, or 9000 XP each)
-using Class Levels summed and divided to determine PEL ala v4.: 8 30th-level characters (PEL 32) treat InDy as a PEL -6 (i.e. 37.5 XP/HD, or 1125 XP)

Which of the above methods is correct? EL or PEL?

No idea, but heres a thought, why would you go back to v4 after I released v5?

Pssthpok said:
Using CR 113 we get an EL 28... marginally more realistic, but not as drastically as I should imagine.
Using EL we get 18,000 XP per character with a victory.
Using PEL we get a standard encounter (75 XP/HD, or 2250 XP) with a victory.

I'm lost, where does CR 113 come from?

Pssthpok said:
In your debate on WotC, you stated many times that CR equals ECL, but the templates in Ascension do not support this statement, hence the different entries for CR and ECL modifiers granted by the template.

I probably stated that CR should equal ECL. The simple fact of the matter is that it does not. In version 4 I used a system whereby CR and ECL were the same thing. But it simply proved too confusing to people, because you had WotC CR and Upper_Krust CR.

Pssthpok said:
I'll use ECL in place of CR though, to see if it pegs InDy's relative power sufficiently above a party of twice-as-many-as-normal PCs of less than half InDy's HD, and almost 1/3 of his CR... divine ranks and abilities not withstanding.

Effective Character Level and Encounter Level:
68 HD + 60 (w/equipment) = ECL 128. Assuming that ECL equals CR, this makes InDy an EL 29... hmph.

What's wrong with this picture? Should PEL be completely disregarded? On the low end, it doesn't make sense to use EL for PCs since the yields are so high, but in this case it seems only fair to use EL since otherwise the PCs get practically nothing for defeating a creature 38 levels and 12 divine ranks over them.
Furthermore, why, if CR = ECL, are there separate modifiers for these numbers in the templates?
Am I doing something wrong?

You seem to be mixing v4 with v5.

The simple facts are:

ECL 128 = CR 85.

ECL 30 = CR 20.

Therefore the two should never be brought together since one is more than x4 the other, which is not advisable at epic levels.

However, if we choose to ignore that...

CR x 1.5 = EL +2 = x2 PCs
CR x 2 = EL +4 = x4 PCs
CR x 3 = EL +6 = x8 PCs
CR x 4 = EL +8 = x16 PCs

2x ECL 30/ CR 20 = ECL 45/CR 30 (so 2 L30 characters = CR 30)

4x ECL 30/CR 20 = ECL 60/CR 40 (so 4-5* L30 characters = CR 40)

8x ECL 30/CR 20 = ECL 90/CR60 (so 8-11* L30 characters = CR 60)

16x ECL 30/CR 20 = ECL 120/CR 80 (so 16-23* L30 characters = CR 80)

*Remember in all cases of multiple characters to use average or better numbers (5/10/20 in these cases).

So technically twenty L30 characters would be roughly equal to a single Intermediate deity with 68 hit die.

But, as previously stated the god would probably still win because hes more than four times more powerful than any individual.

Collectively it would be an EL +/-0 encounter though. With each character gaining 75 EXP x their ECL. 2250 in this case.