Challenging Challenge Ratings...again

[Upper_Krust]

Version 5 of the CR/EL document can be found here:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=132991&page=2&pp=40

Post #42.

 

[Pssthpok]

Okay, where does this alternate CR come from?

68 HD intermediated Deity = ECL 128 = CR 85.

Where does CR 113 come from?

Oops; shoulda been 108. I was trying to find a wya to make the CR higher within the parameters that I had. This makes my point more severe.

So when the spread says 8-11 characters, you should always use at least 10.

Which compounds the problem by making it EASIER for the incredibly low-level PCS to 'win', and also cuts into the XP gains even more.

No idea, but heres a thought, why would you go back to v4 after I released v5?

Because v5 was giving me results that defied reason. I figured I'd use to PEL rules from v4 to try to shore up the XP gains... I was trying everything at my disposal to make the numbers look right when comparing 8 30th-level PCs to an entity they, statistically, had next to no chance of beating even though your tabls said they should barely make a dime of XP off the fight.

I'm lost, where does CR 113 come from?

HD + template CR modifier, sans the 2/3 factoring of the HD results in 108, like I mentioned above. Nonetheless, it makes my point more severe by reducing the highest CR I could muster from your tables and templates by 5 points when InDy should have been represented CR-wise as far tougher than those tables indicate.

You seem to be mixing v4 with v5.

Could you show me a better way of representing the relationship between InDy and a group of 8 (or 10) 30th-level PCs without it seeming like a walk in the park for the PCs when all is said and done and the XP is handed out?

So technically twenty L30 characters would be roughly equal to a single Intermediate deity with 68 hit die.

So 8-10 PCs of 30th level should go the way of the Dodo, then? That's reassuring, because theway I was seeing the tables was showing me something completely different.

But, as previously stated the god would probably still win because hes more than four times more powerful than any individual.

That's my point, yeah. Tables not withstanding, the fight is practically predetermined.

Collectively it would be an EL +/-0 encounter though. With each character gaining 75 EXP x their ECL. 2250 in this case.

For 20 L30s? Jeeze... okay, I still don't see that happening, but taking things like Vorpal and autohit/fails into account, I guess anything is possible.

Thanks for the thorough reply.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Pssthpok mate!

Oops; shoulda been 108. I was trying to find a wya to make the CR higher within the parameters that I had. This makes my point more severe.

I'm not sure I follow you?

Make the CR higher for the deity? Why not just give them more hit dice or greater power or somesuch...?

Which compounds the problem by making it EASIER for the incredibly low-level PCS to 'win', and also cuts into the XP gains even more.

Have you tested such an encounter - do the PCs win easily?

Because v5 was giving me results that defied reason. I figured I'd use to PEL rules from v4 to try to shore up the XP gains... I was trying everything at my disposal to make the numbers look right when comparing 8 30th-level PCs to an entity they, statistically, had next to no chance of beating even though your tabls said they should barely make a dime of XP off the fight.

Well you are facing a number of statistical dilemmas.

1) At epic levels characters shouldn't face off against any individuals more than four times as powerful as themselves.

2) You sought to get round that problem by simply escalating the number of PCs.

If you simply had five L30 PCs against a 60 HD intermediate deity (CR 80), it would be an EL +8 encounter, meaning almost certain death. But the EXP rewards would be immense. 75 x Level x 16 = 36,000 in this case.

HD + template CR modifier, sans the 2/3 factoring of the HD results in 108, like I mentioned above.

Why would you add the template CR modifier instead of the template ECL modifier.

I mean you are crossing the streams right there.

Nonetheless, it makes my point more severe by reducing the highest CR I could muster from your tables and templates by 5 points when InDy should have been represented CR-wise as far tougher than those tables indicate.

I think I may have made a mistake working out the EXP in my previous post.

For 16-23 L30 PCs taking on a CR 80 individual it would have been an EL +4 ecounter.

Meaning the EXP would be 75 x Level x 4 = 9000 EXP each.

Could you show me a better way of representing the relationship between InDy and a group of 8 (or 10) 30th-level PCs without it seeming like a walk in the park for the PCs when all is said and done and the XP is handed out?

So 8-10 PCs of 30th level should go the way of the Dodo, then? That's reassuring, because theway I was seeing the tables was showing me something completely different.

Well 4-5 (technically 5) PCs are roughly equal to something double their individual power.

16-23 (technically 20+) PCs are equal to something quodruple their individual power.

So 16-23 CR 20s are equal to 1 CR 80 = EL +8 encounter.

Remember an equal CR is EL +4, because thats a 50/50 encounter.

So 4-5 CR 20s are equal to 1 CR 40 = EL +4 encounter.

Does that help you any?

Feel free to give me a number of situations and I will determine the EL, CR and EXP for you.

That's my point, yeah. Tables not withstanding, the fight is practically predetermined.

For two reasons.

1) You are dealing with an extreme situation.

2) Using an epic individual with power greater than quodruple that of any PC is almost certainly going to lead to their defeat, regardless of how many PCs you use to try and shore up the difference.

For 20 L30s? Jeeze... okay, I still don't see that happening, but taking things like Vorpal and autohit/fails into account, I guess anything is possible.

What you are dealing with is an absolute extreme situation. Which means that for the PCs to win its going to have to be some sort of miraculous series of events.

Thanks for the thorough reply.

Always happy to help mate. It can be very tricky getting the hang of ELs.

 

[Pssthpok]

Hey hey, UK. (that rhymes)

I'm not sure I follow you?

Make the CR higher for the deity? Why not just give them more hit dice or greater power or somesuch...?

I was playing around with the numbers I had in front of me. I figured I could look at the stats and resovle the CR by not hitting with that 2/3 factor to the HD and maybe that would result in more sensible numbers. Naturally, I was wrong.

Have you tested such an encounter - do the PCs win easily?

Not yet. InDy is still missing certain PORTFOLIO elements. *ahem

1) At epic levels characters shouldn't face off against any individuals more than four times as powerful as themselves.

Duely noted.

2) You sought to get round that problem by simply escalating the number of PCs.

Well, frankly, that 8-person party is a sort of JLA in my game and when I resolved InDy's EL I was a bit surprised to find him (theoretically) within reach.

Why would you add the template CR modifier instead of the template ECL modifier.

Because EL is determined by applying CR to TABLE 2-1 in v5, not ECL.

Does that help you any?

Yes, thanks.

Feel free to give me a number of situations and I will determine the EL, CR and EXP for you.

I'll keep that in my Rolodex.

1) You are dealing with an extreme situation.

re: 1) Certainly. This issue cropped up because the EL calculator in v5 and v4 indicated that InDy was within reach of my "JLA"; I hadn't taken into account the point you make with...

2) Using an epic individual with power greater than quodruple that of any PC is almost certainly going to lead to their defeat, regardless of how many PCs you use to try and shore up the difference.

...the above.

Always happy to help mate. It can be very tricky getting the hang of ELs.

Certainly can; thanks for the coaching.

 

[Fieari]

I'm pretty sure that when it comes to v5, every time it says "CR" it really means "ECL" instead. I've taken to calling it the "ECL document" instead of the "CR document".

 

[Pssthpok]

I'm pretty sure that when it comes to v5, every time it says "CR" it really means "ECL" instead. I've taken to calling it the "ECL document" instead of the "CR document".

Is this true, then?

If so, then PC ECL and PC CR are equal; PC ECL determines PC EL, right?
And Creature CR is 2/3 it's ECL and it's the ECL that determines the Creature EL.

So, if one goes into the MM and looks at a Marilith (CR 17), it's safe to say that the Marilith's ECL is 25 or so? If this is true, then the Marilith's level adjustment would be +9 and it's Encounter Level would be 19?

On that same note, a Trumpet Archon (CR 14) would be an ECL 21, LA +7, and EL 18?

If this is how it works, why bother with CR at all other than to correct it into ECL, LA, and EL?

Edit: Other than the fact that some monsters exist whose Core CRs result in ECLs lower than their HD, like the Tarrasque: CR 20, ECL 30, LA -18, EL 20.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey guys!

You know I wouldn't even use the Encounter Level Table anymore. I think its totally unnecessary and simply confusing.

Just work out the CR of your party. Then work out the CR of the monsters.

If the two CRs are the same then its an EL +4 encounter (50/50 chance).

Opponent CR
x2 = EL +8 (practically impossible)
x1.5 = EL +6 (very difficult)
same as party = EL +4 (difficult)
2/3 = EL +2 (tough)
1/2 = EL +/-0 (moderate)
1/3 = EL -2 (easy)
1/4 = EL -4 (very easy)
1/6 = EL -6 (cannon fodder)
1/8 = EL -8 (practically irrelevant)

So we have 8 PCs of Level 30 = CR 20 (individually), collectively CR 60 (although techically you should have 10 PCs, since the spread is 8-11).

The opponent is CR 85, so he is less than x1.5 more than the 8 PCs (but because you are only using 8 PCs when you should have 10) its almost certainly EL +6 for your party.

If the PCs win they will gain EXP equal to 75 x their level (30) x 8 (EL +6) = 18,000

Simple.

All this faffing about with Encounter Level Tables and so forth just confuese me.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Square all the CRs and add them up; that's the "Challenge". Compare the challenge of the party with the challenge of the monsters.

Opponent CR
x4 = EL +8 (practically impossible)
x2 = EL +6 (very difficult)
same as party = EL +4 (difficult)
1/2 = EL +2 (tough)
1/4 = EL +/-0 (moderate)
1/8 = EL -2 (easy)
1/16 = EL -4 (very easy)
1/32 = EL -6 (cannon fodder)
1/64 = EL -8 (practically irrelevant)

Experience points awards scale along with challenge; if everyone gets 75 xp/level for a moderate challenge, they should get twice as much for a tough challenge. Adjust as you would any xp award.

 

[Pssthpok]

So we have 8 PCs of Level 30 = CR 20 (individually), collectively CR 60 (although techically you should have 10 PCs, since the spread is 8-11).

Wait a sec... how do you come up with a collective cR 60?

The opponent is CR 85, so he is less than x1.5 more than the 8 PCs (but because you are only using 8 PCs when you should have 10) its almost certainly EL +6 for your party.

With you here... excet that CR 60 bit.

If the PCs win they will gain EXP equal to 75 x their level (30) x 8 (EL +6) = 18,000

Wait wait wait... where does an EL +6 indicate x8?
Crap... figured it out on my own. EL +6 = x8 because it's double double double the 1*75*HD of an EL -4. D'oh!

Simple.

But how did you get a CR 60 for 8 L30s?

All this faffing about with Encounter Level Tables and so forth just confuese me.

Well put.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

I like your idea to Cheiromancer! Although it does require a calculator. Then again, when you have PCs (and henchmen) or varying levels of power it could be very useful.

Wait a sec... how do you come up with a collective cR 60?

Simple.

CR x1.5 = EL +2
CR x2 = EL +4

Therefore 4 characters (EL +4) are double the CR of 1 character.

Double the number of characters = CR x1.5
Quodruple the number of characters = CR x2

Therefore a double and a quodruple = eight times the number of characters = x3

Therefore 8* PCs of 30th-level (CR 20 individually) = CR 60

*Though as I keep mentioning, use 10 or 11, because the spread is 8-11.

The Spreads are:

1 Character = EL +/-0
2 = EL +2
3 = EL +3
4-5 = EL +4
6-7 = EL +5
8-11 = EL +6
12-15 = EL +7
16-23 = EL +8

Of course thats only a quick method that works when you have characters of roughly the same CR. Cheiromancer's method will work better when you have characters of differing CR.