D&D (2024) Change multiclassing prerequisites?

What should the multiclass prerequisite be?

  • Higher than 13.

    Votes: 9 15.8%
  • 13

    Votes: 19 33.3%
  • 12

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 11

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 10

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • None

    Votes: 29 50.9%

Vaalingrade

Legend
ASIs do nothing of the sort... 5e removed the mechanical hooks needed for interesting feats gated with flavor. Here's an example of something a fighter could do well before level 10
Power Attack (str13)→ Improved Sunder (str 13, power attack)→ Combat Expertise(str13)→ Improved Trip(int13, combat expertise)→ Improved Bull Rush(str13, power attack)→ Combat Brute(power attack, improved sunder, BaB+6)→ Shocktrooper(power attack, improved bull rush, BaB +6)*

Not just before 10th... a fighter could grab all those by like level 6 or 7
All of those had flavor meaning and visceral power in options granted
I.... what?

I'm saying ASIs, which take the place of a feat are flavorless 'feats' that take up space where a feat should be and shouldn't be doing so and so is creating a feat to waste a feat for multiclassing. Not... whatever this was replying to.
 

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Dausuul

Legend
I am under no illusions that WotC is paying attention to this discussion, but I've been wanting to try this for a while, so here's a take on what hybrid classes in 5E could look like. (I'm basing this off the standard 5E fighter and wizard, since the 1D&D versions are still in flux.)

HYBRID FIGHTER
LevelProf. BonusFeatures
1+2Fighting Style, Second Wind (2/long rest)
2+2Action Surge (1/long rest)
3+2Hybrid Subclass: Martial Archetype*
4+2Ability Score Improvement*
5+3Limited Extra Attack
6+3Ability Score Improvement*
7+3Martial Archetype Feature*
8+3Ability Score Improvement*
9+4Indomitable (1/long rest)
10+4Martial Archetype Feature*
11+4Limited Extra Attack (2)
12+4Ability Score Improvement*
13+5Indomitable (2/long rest)
14+5Ability Score Improvement*
15+5Martial Archetype Feature*
16+5Ability Score Improvement*
17+6Action Surge (2/long rest)
18+6Martial Archetype Feature*
19+6Ability Score Improvement*
20+6Limited Extra Attack (3)

*You only get these features if you chose a martial archetype for your Hybrid Subclass.

Hit Points
To find your total hit points, combine the base hit points from both your classes, then add your Constitution modifier times your level.
Hit Dice: 1d10 per level, or your other class's hit dice, whichever is greater
Base Hit Points at 1st Level: 5
Base Hit Points at Higher Levels: 3

Proficiencies
You have proficiency in one minor saving throw and one major saving throw, chosen from the options available to both your classes.
Armor: All armor, shields
Weapons: Simple weapons, martial weapons
Tools: None
Saving Throws: Strength (minor), Constitution (major)
Skills: Choose one from Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, and Religion

Fighting Style
If you don't already have a fighting style, you may choose one fighting style from the options available to the fighter class.

Second Wind
On your turn, you can use a bonus action to regain hit points equal to 1d10 + your level. Once you use this feature, you must finish a long rest before you can use it again.

Action Surge
Starting at 2nd level, on your turn, you can take one additional action. Once you use this feature, you must finish a long rest before you can use it again. Starting at 17th level, you can use it twice before a long rest, but only once on the same turn.

Hybrid Subclass
At 3rd level, if you have not yet chosen a Hybrid Subclass, you may choose a martial archetype from the Fighter class. If you do, the archetype you choose grants you features at 3rd level and again at 7th, 10th, 15th, and 18th level.

Ability Score Improvement
At 4th level, if you chose a martial archetype for your Hybrid Subclass, you can increase one ability score by 2; increase two ability scores by 1 each; or gain a feat of your choice. You can't increase an ability score above 20 this way.

Limited Extra Attack
Starting at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, when you take the Attack action on your turn. You can use this ability three times, and you can recover expended uses as an action.

The number of attacks increases to three when you reach 11th level and four when you reach 20th level.

If your other class also grants Limited Extra Attack: You don't expend uses of this ability to make two attacks instead of one. You must still expend a use to make three attacks (at 11th level or higher) or four attacks (at 20th level). For those purposes, you have a total of three uses.

Indomitable
Starting at 9th level, you can reroll a saving throw that you fail. If you do so, you must use the new roll, and you can’t use this feature again until you finish a long rest. You can use this feature twice between long rests starting at 13th level.

HYBRID WIZARD

Level

Prof. Bonus

Features

Cantrips
Known
123456789
1+2Spellcasting, Minor Arcane Recovery21
2+2Hybrid Subclass: Arcane Tradition*22
3+2221
4+2Ability Score Improvement*221
5+32211
6+3Arcane Tradition Feature*2221
7+322211
8+3Ability Score Improvement*22211
9+4222111
10+4Arcane Tradition Feature*322111
11+43221111
12+4Ability Score Improvement*3221111
13+532221101
14+5Arcane Tradition Feature*32221101
15+5322211001
16+5Ability Score Improvement*322211101
17+63222111001
18+6Invoke Mastery3222110101
19+6Ability Score Improvement*3222110011
20+6Signature Spell3222111011

*You only get these features if you chose an arcane tradition for your Hybrid Subclass.

Hit Points
To find your total hit points, combine the base hit points from both your classes, then add your Constitution modifier times your level.
Hit Dice: 1d6 per level, or your other class's hit dice, whichever is greater
Base Hit Points at 1st Level: 3
Base Hit Points at Higher Levels: 2

Proficiencies
You have proficiency in one minor saving throw and one major saving throw, chosen from the options available to both your classes.
Armor: None
Weapons: Daggers, darts, slings, quarterstaffs, light crossbows
Tools: None
Saving Throws: Intelligence (minor), Wisdom (major)
Skills: Choose one from Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, and Religion

Spellcasting
You use the same spellcasting rules as the wizard class, but the number of wizard spells you can prepare is halved, and you only gain the spell slots indicated for your level on the Hybrid Wizard table.

You can learn and prepare a wizard spell as long as its level is less than or equal to your highest-level spell slot from this class. (If you don't have a slot of the spell's exact level, you may have to use a higher-level slot to cast it.)

Minor Arcane Recovery
Once per day when you finish a short rest, you can choose expended spell slots to recover. The spell slots can have a combined level up to your proficiency bonus minus 1.

Hybrid Subclass
At 2nd level, if you have not yet chosen a Hybrid Subclass, you can choose an arcane tradition from the Wizard class. If you do, the archetype you choose grants you features at 2nd level and again at 6th, 10th, and 14th level.

Ability Score Improvement
At 4th level, if you chose an arcane tradition for your Hybrid Subclass, you can increase one ability score by 2; increase two ability scores by 1 each; or gain a feat of your choice. You can't increase an ability score above 20 this way.

Invoke Mastery
At 18th level, as a bonus action, you can choose a 1st-level wizard spell and a 2nd-level wizard spell you have prepared. For 1 minute, you can cast those spells at their lowest level without expending spell slots. You can't use this ability again until you finish a long rest.

Signature Spell
At 20th level, choose a 3rd-level wizard spell in your spellbook as a signature spell. You always have this spell prepared, it doesn't count against the number of spells you have prepared, and you can cast it once at 3rd level without expending a spell slot. When you do so, you can't do so again until you finish a short or long rest.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
I.... what?

I'm saying ASIs, which take the place of a feat are flavorless 'feats' that take up space where a feat should be and shouldn't be doing so and so is creating a feat to waste a feat for multiclassing. Not... whatever this was replying to.
They really don't accomplish that either because they are a forced choice where almost everyone takes +2 +2 until they hit 20 in their primary stat. Once the player has done that they begin taking other feats. The only real exceptions are builds that incorporate a usually broken half feat with a +1 for some core competency reason like elven accuracy bow users who exploit the gratuitously tuned cost/benefit ratio of odd numbered attributes in point buy and some builds that take bonkers overpowered feats that were even dropped in the playtest packets.

The space taking aspect you are talking about falls apart when tossed in the acid bath of player behavior like it's been tossed in a tub of piranha solution.
 

5th, 11th, 17th and 20th level felt natural for 5E power boost with new tier of play and 20th level capstone.
8th and 14th level then fall in perfectly to gain 2+2 class levels every 3 character levels.
I still agree your multiclass idea is good.

I still think, that both options standard and yours can exist in the same game.
 

ECMO3

Hero
Are we really worried about a 8 Int fighter taking a few levels of wizard?

Compared to a base fighter, this character will be MUCH more powerful in all 3 pillars. Shield, Silvery Barbs, Absorb Elements and cantrips alone ensure that is the case.

The 13 Intelligence (or Charisma for a Sorc) required to get these benefits is the price you pay for them.
 

ECMO3

Hero
They really don't accomplish that either because they are a forced choice where almost everyone takes +2 +2 until they hit 20 in their primary stat.

IME this is not true. Often they start with an odd primary stat and take a half-feat if they want to boost it and feats are more common as ASIs in games I play

The last several players I played or am playing in order taken:
Wizard8/Cleric2: Second Chance (Dex), Intelligence ASI
Fighter 11/Ranger 8: Heavy Armor Master (Strength), Lucky, Resilient Wisdom, Strength ASI, Wisdom ASI - will be taking Mage Slayer at level 20
Rogue 1/Fighter8/Cleric3 (Human): Tavern Brawler (1st level), Fey Touched (Wisdom), Strength ASI, Grappler
Rogue5/Fighter6/Sorcer4 (Human): Fey Touched (Intelligence) (1st level), Martial Adept, Shadow Touched (Intelligence), Metamagic Adept, Telekenetic (Intelligence)
Paladin 13 (Dragonlance): Squire of Solamnia (1st level), Knight of Sword, Fey Touched (Charisma), Charisma ASI
Warlock 7/Sorcerer 3 (custom lineage): Fey Touched (Charisma) (1st level), Metamagic Adept
Wizard 6/Fighter 4: Shadow touched (Intelligence), Int ASI
 


mellored

Legend
Compared to a base fighter, this character will be MUCH more powerful in all 3 pillars.
No.

They worse at combat. You delayed your multi-attack by a level. You delayed great weapon master by a level. You delayed your second action surge.

That's the trade. You don't just get a free level. You lost a fighter level.
Shield, Silvery Barbs, Absorb Elements and cantrips alone ensure that is the case.
So you think an 8 Int Eldritch Knight is overpowered?
Or possibly it's just those spells that are.

Again the only thing your really picking up by going 8 Int wizard is more rituals.
 

No.

They worse at combat. You delayed your multi-attack by a level. You delayed great weapon master by a level. You delayed your second action surge.

That's the trade. You don't just get a free level. You lost a fighter level.

So you think an 8 Int Eldritch Knight is overpowered?
Or possibly it's just those spells that are.

Again the only thing your really picking up by going 8 Int wizard is more rituals.
Maybe.
All I can say is, a player at my table who is playing an Eldritch Knight/Wizard (I stand to be corrected) might disagree with your assessment here. He is very much our table's min/maxer and I suspect aligns with the ideas posted by @ECMO3.
He is 14th level but I'm not sure what the combination split is between the classes. Perhaps one's overall level is another factor.
 

mellored

Legend
Maybe.
All I can say is, a player at my table who is playing an Eldritch Knight/Wizard (I stand to be corrected) might disagree with your assessment here. He is very much our table's min/maxer and I suspect aligns with the ideas posted by @ECMO3.
He is 14th level but I'm not sure what the combination split is between the classes. Perhaps one's overall level is another factor.
He probably stopped at fighter 11.

But this more of a "fighters don't have good things past 11" problem. Which should be getting fixed.

I.e. Survivor at fighter 14 from the last packet gives fighters regeneration and can't fail death saves (effectively).

Which is more combat powerful than a few shield spells. (Though less exploration power than the rituals).
 

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