Changeover poll

Changeover Edition to Edition of D&D Poll

  • Complete Changeover: All 4E played now, no earlier editions of D&D

    Votes: 179 31.7%
  • Largely over: Mostly 4E played now, some earlier edition play

    Votes: 61 10.8%
  • Half over: Half 4E played now, half earlier edition play

    Votes: 38 6.7%
  • Partial Changeover: Some 4E played now, mostly earlier edition play

    Votes: 14 2.5%
  • Slight Changeover: A little 4E played now, mostly earlier edition play

    Votes: 35 6.2%
  • No Change: Tried 4E, went back to earlier edition play

    Votes: 83 14.7%
  • No Change: Never tried 4E, all earlier edition play

    Votes: 154 27.3%

And since I see that you are a real game designer involved with real game companies and publishers, I will defer to your expertise.:cool:

Oooh, dangerous! Dangerous! Thanks for the vote of confidence, but trust me, just because I work part time in the industry, doesn't mean I'm not also just a fan with a chip on my shoulder! :)

Case in point: I didn't think WotC would fumble the DDI, having learned a lesson with MasterTools. Boy was I wrong on that!

However, what about this polarization with customers, and with 3PP? Did it seem this bad with 2E to 3E (except with 3PP - I don't think there really was a 3PP market until 3E)? Or do you feel this is a non-issue? I'm interested in your opinion of this aspect.

3e had another set of circumstances; 2e was waning, had been waning for a long time. And it was so bad at TSR that Dragon and Dungeon had stopped being published for a long time. So people knew how bad it could be, which made it a lot easier to roll out 3e.

Having said that, there are polarisation in regards to everything D&D. It is inherent in the nature of doing edition changes. WFRPv1 and WFRPv2 are in all respects identical games if you compare them to D&D3 and D&D4, and yet that edition change, relaunching a commerically abandoned edition, polarised the community to a certain degree.

It is inevitable that there are strong feelings now, and I remember the strong feelings when 3.5 was released. That blew over, and now 3.5 is the edition that many feel attached to.

It all goes round and round.

Cheers!

/M
 

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Things that have equally polarised the Internet.

Every single change in any Online Game.
Every single change in any Comic Book.
Every single change in anything, ever.
I don't play online games so I have no experience with them, but I somehow find that doubtful. WoW hasn't lost half of it's users...

As for comic books, the amount of changes they constantly make is rediculous. If "every single change" they made polarized their customers like this, they would have been out of business LONG ago. Even with all the retcons they do...

The life cycle of an edition is measured in years, and the core books will sell throughout this life cycle. To expect everyone to switch over at once is unrealistic. And having a 51% adoption rate 3 months after release is by any metric a stunning success.
But yet the majority of books are sold within the first 6 months of release.

Imagine if Microsoft had achieved a 51% conversion of Windows XP to Windows Vista in three months. Seems impossible? Well, yes, because it is impossible to pull everyone over by flicking a switch. It's a process.
Computers and RPGs are different beasts, but it's funny you should use Vista as a comparison to 4.0. After all, people have tried it and then switched back...

And I think you forget the days of Windows 95, with people sleeping outside computer stores eager to be the first to have it...

I would be very, very, very surprised if WotC are planning to rope in even 55% of the current players in the first six months, even a year. They probably have a multi-year plan for that.
Really? We must have been reading different previews then.

Did they? 3e sales were stalling, falling, crashing to the ground according to WotC and several third party publishers.
Are these "quotes" from before or after 4.0 was announced? I remember them from after. I don't recall them from before...

And don't we also know that gamers will complain until they're blue in the face, and then stick it to the man by ... buying lots of stuff anyway. It's the power of the brand, and it's a tough cookie to ignore.
True enough. But I think the constant reminder from people that they are "going to change" will actually keep a lot of those people from changing anytime soon. I may not be a fan of 4.0, but I still thought it would capture 70-80% of the exisiting base...
 

I don't play online games so I have no experience with them, but I somehow find that doubtful. WoW hasn't lost half of it's users...

As for comic books, the amount of changes they constantly make is rediculous. If "every single change" they made polarized their customers like this, they would have been out of business LONG ago. Even with all the retcons they do...
Your conclusions would be accurate only if the people that post on internet message boards where in any way a significant proportion of a products customer base.

Honestly, I have seen actual death threats made over changing an Armour Dye from 'Hot Pink' to Red, if there is one thing message boards do it's polarise the people on them.
 

I don't play online games so I have no experience with them, but I somehow find that doubtful. WoW hasn't lost half of it's users...
But WoW users have no choice, if they want to keep playing.

As for comic books, the amount of changes they constantly make is rediculous. If "every single change" they made polarized their customers like this, they would have been out of business LONG ago. Even with all the retcons they do...
How often can you use a comic book?
How often can you use the PHB 3.5?

But yet the majority of books are sold within the first 6 months of release.
In that case - look at how many people have tried it, meaning they must have access to the books?

How many of those that haven't tried have bought the books and decided to not try after all? Of course, you can ask how many people need the Core Books if they just try it, and how many may have downloaded it... But then I could ask how many people never bought the 3E core rules and relied on the SRD or copies from friends (or pirated copies). ;)

True enough. But I think the constant reminder from people that they are "going to change" will actually keep a lot of those people from changing anytime soon. I may not be a fan of 4.0, but I still thought it would capture 70-80% of the exisiting base...
Well, what we hope or think might not have any relation to what will actually happen. I have no idea about the "conversion" rate with role playing games. I suspect it's higher then, say, the conversion rate in switch between car models. ;)
 
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We have 798 votes, and there has been a change again:

Changeover: 37%
Partial Changeover: 15%
No Changeover: 48%

Remember that if there are 70,000 posters to ENWorld, this poll's 798 votes represents only a little over 1% of ENWorld.
So, it is hardly representative of the Gaming world.

What I will find curious is how this poll compares with one taken, say, a year from now.
 
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We have 798 votes, and there has been a change again:

Changeover: 37%
Partial Changeover: 15%
No Changeover: 48%

Remember that if there are 70,000 posters to ENWorld, this poll's 798 votes represents only a little over 1% of ENWorld.
So, it is hardly representative of the Gaming world.

What I will find curious is how this poll compares with one taken, say, a year from now.

And, not all of your change over is fully changed over. Some are still playing some previous edition.
 
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Remember that if there are 70,000 posters to ENWorld, this poll's 798 votes represents only a little over 1% of ENWorld.
So, it is hardly representative of the Gaming world.

Whether it's representative or not has nothing to do with what percentage of the population you've got responses from. See my earlier post.
 

But yet the majority of books are sold within the first 6 months of release.

Isn't it 3 months, and it applies to supplements? Core rules follow different sales patterns.

And I think you forget the days of Windows 95, with people sleeping outside computer stores eager to be the first to have it...

I do remember when 4e came out ... or rather before 4e came out. People were so eager to have the rules that they downloaded them illegally just so they could start playing! :)

Really? We must have been reading different previews then.


Sure, must have. I don't remember WotC saying "we want ALL to switch within 6 months!". Actually, I've never read any official statement at all as to what the rate of conversion they were hoping for. All I've read is that they're clobbering their projections, which could mean that they are actually doing BETTER than they expected with the conversions.


Are these "quotes" from before or after 4.0 was announced? I remember them from after. I don't recall them from before...

Before: from 3rd parties.

After: from WotC and 3rd parties.


I may not be a fan of 4.0, but I still thought it would capture 70-80% of the exisiting base...

I think it will, given a realistic timeframe.

/M
 

Ack. Losing it. The results are as before:

Changeover: 37%
Partial Changeover: 14%
No Changeover: 49%

We are at 799 votes. Can we get to 800? Yes! Can we get to 1,000? I hope so!
 

Isn't it 3 months, and it applies to supplements? Core rules follow different sales patterns.

The idea is that the core books will keep selling over the course of the edition and that the supplements will help push sales of the core books. Regardless, you still see the greatest number of sales immediately after release.

I do remember when 4e came out ... or rather before 4e came out. People were so eager to have the rules that they downloaded them illegally just so they could start playing! :)
More likely they just wanted to see what was behind the secrecy. I don't doubt, however, that it's selling well. I'm a non-adopter and I bought the core books. I know several other who bought them, checked them out, and decided not to adopt it for their games.

Sure, must have. I don't remember WotC saying "we want ALL to switch within 6 months!". Actually, I've never read any official statement at all as to what the rate of conversion they were hoping for. All I've read is that they're clobbering their projections, which could mean that they are actually doing BETTER than they expected with the conversions.
Ideally the majority would switch within the first few months. They announced it about a year ahead of time to give people warning, time to save, time to watch the information about the game that they release, and time to end their 3rd edition campaigns. That also gives them time to plant the seeds that the edition they've been promoting like crazy for the last eight years is somehow fundamentally flawed, despite the talent that worked on it, the number of players, and the eight years of continued support. It's all marketing. Hit the reset button and hope people jump onboard.

The company is telling people that it's selling like crazy. Of course they're telling people that. Even if the truth was that it was selling well below expectations, they would still be out there bragging about how well it's doing because if the perception was that it wasn't selling well, those who had been early adopters would stop buying stuff and go with what everybody else is playing.If you're a company selling a product, you never admit defeat until the point where everyone is cleaning out their desks and you're turning out the lights. But, as I said, I don't think 4E doing poorly, I suspect that it's hitting its target numbers. I just doubt that it's actually exceeding them, based on the quantity if negativity I've seen from the existing player base.

Honestly, I think that if the conversion rate isn't at about 65% by the end of the year, 4th edition will not be performing up to expectations. Will it hit that number? Has it actually hit that number and we just can't tell because we talk about this stuff on the internet? Check back in a few months. A lot of people are buying the core rules, so the real measure will be in RPGA participation, and the sales of supplements.
 
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