Edena_of_Neith
First Post
Well cheers. 800 votes! And still counting! : )
Good going, folks.
We may make that 1,000 vote mark yet.
Good going, folks.
We may make that 1,000 vote mark yet.
Changeover poll
- Thread starter Edena_of_Neith
- Start date
Wow. Quite a few people didn't change to 4E.
I haven't bought the books yet. I've been playing with friends books. After about 15 to 20 sessions, I have no intention of buying the books. I'm not into the game.
4E is not my type of game system. All it did was show me that there is no perfect game system and make me wish GURPS was better supported with adventures and monster books and the like.
At first I thought it was very cinematic. But after playing it for a while I found it is cinema on repeat. It's nice that characters have powers, but after they use them encounter after encounter, they don't seem so special anymore. My players use their encounter powers whether they are needed or not because they feel like they wasted them if they don't use them. There is no more sitting on a power until it is needed like when they were all dailies, now there is a push to blow off every encounter power every encounter making powers seem less special.
The at will wizard powers seemed cool at first. It gave the feel of the wizard destroying a large number of minions. But now that my party fighter calls for a scorching blast right on top of him to destroy minions because the damage is negligible to him and destroys a ton of minions, those wizard powers just seem stupid and underpowered. A 3E wizard could not drop an AoE spell on top of a character (especially an empowered or maximized AoE spell) and have it do negligible damage, while at the same time destroying a ton of other monsters. You had to be an archmage for that kind of precision.
The healing in 4E makes it so that every encounter is pretty easy as you rise in level. On top of all the powers that allow the expenditure of healing surges. I'm finding it pretty difficult to challenge my players with standard encounters. Minions die so quickly they rarely deal any useful damage. Overall, 4E is too easy a game past lvl 1. Maybe it will get harder once we reach higher level, but so far my group has been mowing through monsters I thought would be tougher like ghouls and ogres. This is all being done at lvl 3. Ghoul paralysis is a joke now unless they get a series of hits that stun. Immobilized? big deal. You can still attack and get a save to break the immobilization before the ghoul can stun you.
Overall, I have to say the magic of 4E has worn off on me. I still like the minis and if I go back to 3E, I'll use minis this time around. It makes movement so much easier. But as far as the 4E mechanics go, the only thing I still like better than 3E about it is the ease of preparation to run adventures.
As far as designing tough challenges, 4E is very limiting. I used to be able to design a strategy for a group of monsters based on the spell casters of a given group. Now the strategy is pre-determined for every monster since their capabilities are set and do not change and cannot change without me rewriting the monster. Spell lists gave alot more flexibility in encounter design. These new monsters may have some tough abilities, but those abilities are set and if they don't work the monster is done.
I'm also able to get through less encounters in 4E than I did 3E. A random encounter used to take a 5 or 10 minutes. Now there aren't really any random encounters. Even small guardroom encounters take a while to fight because the player damage doesn't scale up equal to hit points. It takes a long time to go through a monsters hit points when your damage isn't increasing by very much level to level.
The game is very different. Though parts are fun, I have to say I am somewhat dissatisfied with the way many things work. I truly don't like certain elements of 4E that would look stupid in a story like my fighter calling for AoE right on top of his location because it does such pathetic damage or the constant push to use every single encounter power every encounter just because you can.
It just goes to show that there is no perfect game system. There probably never will be a perfect game system. I don't know how much I like 4E after having played it and I can see why quite a few people still prefer older editions.
There was still the same repetition. But at least it was repetition that was somewhat more easily believed like a fighter swinging his sword over and over again or a wizard casting magic missile from a wand to save his memorized magic missile for a creature that might have SR. Now it is magic missile or scorching burst over and over again throw in an encounter power every encounter and a daily every once in a while. The fighter uses his knock prone power every fight as though I'm reading a book where every fight the fighter is knocking someone down or back. The rogue is knocking someone down every fight. And the same repetititous actions over and over again that were I reading a book about it I would lose my mind.
Before a fight was a few cuts of the sword. Now it is special actions that aren't that special because of repetition.
I'm far more of a story guy. This really intereferes with my imagination's ability to think of the adventure as a story.
But I probably won't be able to change. My friends are more MMORPG guys, and they like gaining powers every now and again. They have no problem with the repetitious use of "special" powers as they have become accustomed to such power useage from MMORPGs. While I despise it because it is nothing like a story.
At least in 3E a fighting style was a fighting style where maneuvers were based on conditions rather than times per day. Magical powers were based on times per day, but a fighter could use his combat maneuvers whenever conditions allowed for it. Now I just watch my players blow off encounters whenever they get the chance because at the very least it spikes their damage a bit. They could care less about conditions. It sure seems alot less like a fighting style.
Before I played 4E I was speaking speculatively. I was wrong about some of the speculation. But after playing 4E I have to say that it has some problems that are difficult to resolve for my imagination. I didn't care for the repetitous use of wands for healing from 3E, but I don't know that I care more for the repetitious use of powers including healing of 4E. The repetition is still there, it is just a bit different and encompasses more.
Now I can't carry on a long encounter that spans several different rooms for fear of players being out of their encounter powers and healing. At least with wands and powers based on conditions, I could run varied encounters that involved one room or many rooms. Now that is not the case or I will kill the party, yet room by room seems too easy alot of the time. All in all just not a great game. I understand why so many people are resisting the change. 4E has alot of mechanical issues I can see players being displeased with. It is not even close to a perfect game system and I would say it is not even an improvement over 3E. It is just different and provides a different play experience that some will like and some won't.
I think I'm going to check out Pathfinder when it drops.
I haven't bought the books yet. I've been playing with friends books. After about 15 to 20 sessions, I have no intention of buying the books. I'm not into the game.
4E is not my type of game system. All it did was show me that there is no perfect game system and make me wish GURPS was better supported with adventures and monster books and the like.
At first I thought it was very cinematic. But after playing it for a while I found it is cinema on repeat. It's nice that characters have powers, but after they use them encounter after encounter, they don't seem so special anymore. My players use their encounter powers whether they are needed or not because they feel like they wasted them if they don't use them. There is no more sitting on a power until it is needed like when they were all dailies, now there is a push to blow off every encounter power every encounter making powers seem less special.
The at will wizard powers seemed cool at first. It gave the feel of the wizard destroying a large number of minions. But now that my party fighter calls for a scorching blast right on top of him to destroy minions because the damage is negligible to him and destroys a ton of minions, those wizard powers just seem stupid and underpowered. A 3E wizard could not drop an AoE spell on top of a character (especially an empowered or maximized AoE spell) and have it do negligible damage, while at the same time destroying a ton of other monsters. You had to be an archmage for that kind of precision.
The healing in 4E makes it so that every encounter is pretty easy as you rise in level. On top of all the powers that allow the expenditure of healing surges. I'm finding it pretty difficult to challenge my players with standard encounters. Minions die so quickly they rarely deal any useful damage. Overall, 4E is too easy a game past lvl 1. Maybe it will get harder once we reach higher level, but so far my group has been mowing through monsters I thought would be tougher like ghouls and ogres. This is all being done at lvl 3. Ghoul paralysis is a joke now unless they get a series of hits that stun. Immobilized? big deal. You can still attack and get a save to break the immobilization before the ghoul can stun you.
Overall, I have to say the magic of 4E has worn off on me. I still like the minis and if I go back to 3E, I'll use minis this time around. It makes movement so much easier. But as far as the 4E mechanics go, the only thing I still like better than 3E about it is the ease of preparation to run adventures.
As far as designing tough challenges, 4E is very limiting. I used to be able to design a strategy for a group of monsters based on the spell casters of a given group. Now the strategy is pre-determined for every monster since their capabilities are set and do not change and cannot change without me rewriting the monster. Spell lists gave alot more flexibility in encounter design. These new monsters may have some tough abilities, but those abilities are set and if they don't work the monster is done.
I'm also able to get through less encounters in 4E than I did 3E. A random encounter used to take a 5 or 10 minutes. Now there aren't really any random encounters. Even small guardroom encounters take a while to fight because the player damage doesn't scale up equal to hit points. It takes a long time to go through a monsters hit points when your damage isn't increasing by very much level to level.
The game is very different. Though parts are fun, I have to say I am somewhat dissatisfied with the way many things work. I truly don't like certain elements of 4E that would look stupid in a story like my fighter calling for AoE right on top of his location because it does such pathetic damage or the constant push to use every single encounter power every encounter just because you can.
It just goes to show that there is no perfect game system. There probably never will be a perfect game system. I don't know how much I like 4E after having played it and I can see why quite a few people still prefer older editions.
There was still the same repetition. But at least it was repetition that was somewhat more easily believed like a fighter swinging his sword over and over again or a wizard casting magic missile from a wand to save his memorized magic missile for a creature that might have SR. Now it is magic missile or scorching burst over and over again throw in an encounter power every encounter and a daily every once in a while. The fighter uses his knock prone power every fight as though I'm reading a book where every fight the fighter is knocking someone down or back. The rogue is knocking someone down every fight. And the same repetititous actions over and over again that were I reading a book about it I would lose my mind.
Before a fight was a few cuts of the sword. Now it is special actions that aren't that special because of repetition.
I'm far more of a story guy. This really intereferes with my imagination's ability to think of the adventure as a story.
But I probably won't be able to change. My friends are more MMORPG guys, and they like gaining powers every now and again. They have no problem with the repetitious use of "special" powers as they have become accustomed to such power useage from MMORPGs. While I despise it because it is nothing like a story.
At least in 3E a fighting style was a fighting style where maneuvers were based on conditions rather than times per day. Magical powers were based on times per day, but a fighter could use his combat maneuvers whenever conditions allowed for it. Now I just watch my players blow off encounters whenever they get the chance because at the very least it spikes their damage a bit. They could care less about conditions. It sure seems alot less like a fighting style.
Before I played 4E I was speaking speculatively. I was wrong about some of the speculation. But after playing 4E I have to say that it has some problems that are difficult to resolve for my imagination. I didn't care for the repetitous use of wands for healing from 3E, but I don't know that I care more for the repetitious use of powers including healing of 4E. The repetition is still there, it is just a bit different and encompasses more.
Now I can't carry on a long encounter that spans several different rooms for fear of players being out of their encounter powers and healing. At least with wands and powers based on conditions, I could run varied encounters that involved one room or many rooms. Now that is not the case or I will kill the party, yet room by room seems too easy alot of the time. All in all just not a great game. I understand why so many people are resisting the change. 4E has alot of mechanical issues I can see players being displeased with. It is not even close to a perfect game system and I would say it is not even an improvement over 3E. It is just different and provides a different play experience that some will like and some won't.
I think I'm going to check out Pathfinder when it drops.
scruffygrognard
Adventurer
The fact that over 21% of pollsters have tried 4th edition and aren't sticking with it is kinda shocking.
My group has given 4th edition a shot and, most likely, will give it another go. So far we've agreed that it makes for a fun "pick up" game every once in a while BUT we don't see it in our regular game rotation.
My group has given 4th edition a shot and, most likely, will give it another go. So far we've agreed that it makes for a fun "pick up" game every once in a while BUT we don't see it in our regular game rotation.
I'm bet this poll suffers from selection bias:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias
What we don't know is if the participants of the poll are indicative of the population of gamers. I suspect not because Enworld is a 3rd party publisher with lots of 3rd party publisher contacts. There is also the usual bias of only people who care about a topic vote on a topic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias
What we don't know is if the participants of the poll are indicative of the population of gamers. I suspect not because Enworld is a 3rd party publisher with lots of 3rd party publisher contacts. There is also the usual bias of only people who care about a topic vote on a topic.
If you fear selection bias- I'm not saying it isn't present here, because it probably is- try posting links to this thread at WotC's site and other places.
I don't expect much change, though.
I don't expect much change, though.
Flatus Maximus
First Post
I voted no changeover, haven't tried 4E, though I admit to being "a little bicurious."
The problem is that one person in my group has said no effing way, though I suspect eventually he'll want to try it given that he owns pretty much all things D&D (including 4E).
I wonder how many people are prevented from trying it (and voted like I did) that are in a similar situation. If even one person isn't interested that might delay/prevent changeover.
The problem is that one person in my group has said no effing way, though I suspect eventually he'll want to try it given that he owns pretty much all things D&D (including 4E).
I wonder how many people are prevented from trying it (and voted like I did) that are in a similar situation. If even one person isn't interested that might delay/prevent changeover.
Dragon Snack
First Post
I thought we were beyond this, we are talking about the percentages. These are the numbers we have to discuss, if you have better numbers let's see them.
Yes, some people on 'teh intraweb' are psychos. But 50% of them?
Well, they can play other MMORPGs, but if they want to keep playing WoW then I guess the changes weren't that polarizing...
But you can stop buying comics the very next issue if you don't like the direction of the storyline, you can't give back the PHB (well, I suppose you could, but who returns gaming books? - yeah, yeah, I'll hear from them now). I would say comics would be more adversly effected by disenfranchising their base, thus the fact they they stay in business proves that they aren't alienating half their customers with "every single change".
Not sure I get your question. This wasn't about the books selling well, this was a response to the changeover taking an extended period. My point was that sales are the best when things are new, next year 4.0 won't be the "new thing" anymore.
Umm, OK? Was I arguing this?How many of those that haven't tried have bought the books and decided to not try after all? Of course, you can ask how many people need the Core Books if they just try it, and how many may have downloaded it... But then I could ask how many people never bought the 3E core rules and relied on the SRD or copies from friends (or pirated copies).
Again, why go with "conversion rates" of high ticket items? Of course something costing thousands of dollars doesn't have a high conversion rate. Cars =/= RPGs...Well, what we hope or think might not have any relation to what will actually happen. I have no idea about the "conversion" rate with role playing games. I suspect it's higher then, say, the conversion rate in switch between car models.
Well, 3 months makes my point even better. As Darrin said, you see the most sales right after release.
You're right, people certainly don't download things illegally because they want something for nothing. Oh, wait...I do remember when 4e came out ... or rather before 4e came out. People were so eager to have the rules that they downloaded them illegally just so they could start playing!
Darrin stole my thunder again, but they did say "finish up your 3.5 campaigns" when they announced it at Gen Con last year...
Not to be snarky, but, link?
Well, now I think it will get to 60-70% (I put all the partial changeovers into the 4.0 column and I think some that haven't played will change as well), but I guess only time will tell...
Maggan
Writer for CY_BORG, Forbidden Lands and Dragonbane
And by this un-scentific poll, a majority have adopted the new rules.
If it wasn't selling well, or if it was below projections, we would also see price-drops, crossover promotions, and other measures to get the sales momentum going.
A bit like the DDI. It aint working according to projections, so they lower the asking price to get people to hop on. I'm not seeing any of that when it comes to the core rules, so I think they are tracking at or above their projection.
Five months more to go to capture another 15% of the players (if we go by this poll). I think that is a realistic target.
EDIT: Oh, and just a comment on this:
Looking at the 20 or so gamers I have first hand contact with, about 90% of those who played D&D3 have adopted D&D4, and they love it. I'm sure that's not indicative of how the majority of players are reacting to the game, though.
/M
Last edited:
Maggan
Writer for CY_BORG, Forbidden Lands and Dragonbane
Next year. Yes, that's a realistic time frame for the sales of core books to level off into "noise". That gives WotC five more months to capture marketshare for 4e before that has happened to such a great extent that they need to do something. Like release a new Player's Handbook, perhaps?
Darrin also supported that core rules follow a different sales pattern. Sure, sales will level off, they are biggest at the beginning, and that's why we have a 51% conversion after three months. And core rules that are in the third printing.
If we continue to talk about this in context with your observation about Windows 95, I'll just say that I'm sure Windows 95 was pirated as well because people wanted something for nothing, although I'm not sure what point I'm making.
Of course they did. What else would they say? And finishing up campaigns can take quite some time. And when those who haven't yet done so, do finish let's say Age of Worms, then 4e is there waiting for them, better supported, and more talked about online.
Sure.
http://www.chrispramas.com/2007_01_01_pastblog.html
Look for the words "d20 material continuing its death spiral" in the first post on the page.
Right, that's what I think as well. And we have to let time actually pass before knowing for sure.
/M
The whole quote is:
"With the market for third party d20 material continuing its death spiral, there is no longer a quick and easy way for new companies to establish themselves."
IOW, the writer was not describing the whole market for d20 material in general, but rather the decreasing marketability of 3PP material from new 3PPs. D20 wasn't dying, it was a mature market saturated with multiple competitors.
Also note the date of that post- January 2007- just months before 4Ed was announced.
At the time, WotC wasn't releasing much quality new material, just compilations and corrections of previously released material. In some cases, the 3PPs were busy supporting their own 3Ed variants more than supplementing WotC's product with generic releases.
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