Changes to Devils and Demons
- Thread starter mhensley
- Start date
delericho
Legend
Kaodi said:
It's going to be a fairly small piece of text tucked away in the Monster Manual. Do you really think the D&D haters are going to be that familiar with the books? The mere presence of demons and devils in the game is enough for them.
In any case, WotC are quite rightly not designing to try to appease the anti-D&D crowd - it's a lost cause quite frankly. The people who hate the game will hate the game even if it becomes "My Little Pony: the RPG".
IMO, there is one section of 'religious folk' whom WotC should be concerned about, and that's the segment who are also gamers. As long as they don't drive them (okay, us) away, then they're okay.
RichGreen
Adventurer
As a long-time Planescape fan and recent fan of FCI and FCII, I'm not keen. However, my wife always gets demons and devils muddled up so maybe Rich has a point.....
I'm not sure how much I like this "points of light" concept if it means playing fast and loose with 30 years of extraplanar continuity!
Cheers
Richard
I'm not sure how much I like this "points of light" concept if it means playing fast and loose with 30 years of extraplanar continuity!
Cheers
Richard
delericho
Legend
About Interchangeable Demon/Devil encounters
There is another (IMO better) way to ensure that those encounters are not interchangeable - put a usage note in the MM about the two monsters, and lay out different roles for the two. What's more, place Demons and Devils into different niches.
To use the monster categories I saw once in a Design and Development column, Devil should basically be assigned as Masterminds. Therefore, they should be individually more powerful than the corresponding Demon, but should also be much more likely to be encountered alone. By contrast, the Demons basically fit in the Brute category.
Amongst the changes, remove the ability to summon help from Devil write-ups. However, you conversely give them a number of powers/feats that allow them to work better with minions - perhaps an Improved Flank feat, or Aura powers similar to those of the Dragon Shaman. And definately give them a number of non-combat abilities to attract and control minions in the mortal sphere.
Demons, by contrast, are an undisciplined mob, and so have no such ability to coordinate their actions.
As a result of this, and in 3e terms, perhaps an appropriate encounter for a 20th level party would be either a CR 22 Pit Fiend or a CR 18 Balor and his retinue of half a dozen Glabrezu demons.
In addition, you note that the two categories of creatures have different campaign roles - 90% of the time, an encounter with demons is just an encounter with demons; they've probably been summoned by an infernalist to do his evil bidding. By contrast, if you encounter a Devil, it's either because you've just fought your way through several waves of his cultists/minions, or because he's working for some higher devil in a deeper infernal plot... or most likely both.
Now, tell me that those two are not completely different in flavour and usage. And I didn't negate hundreds of pages of published lore to do it, either.
Whizbang Dustyboots said:
There is another (IMO better) way to ensure that those encounters are not interchangeable - put a usage note in the MM about the two monsters, and lay out different roles for the two. What's more, place Demons and Devils into different niches.
To use the monster categories I saw once in a Design and Development column, Devil should basically be assigned as Masterminds. Therefore, they should be individually more powerful than the corresponding Demon, but should also be much more likely to be encountered alone. By contrast, the Demons basically fit in the Brute category.
Amongst the changes, remove the ability to summon help from Devil write-ups. However, you conversely give them a number of powers/feats that allow them to work better with minions - perhaps an Improved Flank feat, or Aura powers similar to those of the Dragon Shaman. And definately give them a number of non-combat abilities to attract and control minions in the mortal sphere.
Demons, by contrast, are an undisciplined mob, and so have no such ability to coordinate their actions.
As a result of this, and in 3e terms, perhaps an appropriate encounter for a 20th level party would be either a CR 22 Pit Fiend or a CR 18 Balor and his retinue of half a dozen Glabrezu demons.
In addition, you note that the two categories of creatures have different campaign roles - 90% of the time, an encounter with demons is just an encounter with demons; they've probably been summoned by an infernalist to do his evil bidding. By contrast, if you encounter a Devil, it's either because you've just fought your way through several waves of his cultists/minions, or because he's working for some higher devil in a deeper infernal plot... or most likely both.
Now, tell me that those two are not completely different in flavour and usage. And I didn't negate hundreds of pages of published lore to do it, either.
Nikosandros
Golden Procrastinator
Well, then given the sweeping changes that are being enacted, instead of eliminating the Erinyes they could have restored it to its proper role...IanB said:
Voadam
Legend
What demons and devils besides succubi and erinyes do you consider humanoid looking?
Tieflings? half of a marilith? Arch devils from 1e (except geryon)? Lolth, Grazz't, etc.? Chain devils. Imps? What about quasits?
Do they just mean they have hands and a head so pit fiends count?
Many devils are pretty monstrous, horned, lemures, pit fiends, barbed devils, bone devils, hellcats, even bearded devils.
Tieflings? half of a marilith? Arch devils from 1e (except geryon)? Lolth, Grazz't, etc.? Chain devils. Imps? What about quasits?
Do they just mean they have hands and a head so pit fiends count?
Many devils are pretty monstrous, horned, lemures, pit fiends, barbed devils, bone devils, hellcats, even bearded devils.
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