Changes to Devils and Demons

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Does seem like they're changing something just to change it, I'd have to agree... and I don't see why the chaos/order conflict is obscure -- it gives some real heft to alignment.

Chaos/Order is absolutely obscure unless you're one of an increasingly aging pool of Elric readers. Given the number of alignment threads here over the years, I'd say it's fair to say a lot of people have trouble wrapping their heads around it, especially when, between devils and demons, they're both bad guys whose primary issue boils down to "you should be MY kind of bad."

 

[IanB]

Well, then given the sweeping changes that are being enacted, instead of eliminating the Erinyes they could have restored it to its proper role...

Well, by removing it from the roster of evil outsiders, they actually have the opportunity to do this, by designing from scratch a creature that more faithfully matches the original mythology, in a future product. They may or may not end up doing so, but I wouldn't be surprised at all to see it. The erinyes should fill a role similar to the inevitables, if anything.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I did no such thing. However, there was a very clear distinction between the two evil outsiders in both Planescape and all 3.x books, which to me had to mean that you are unfamiliar with material on the matter.

It was never clear in the MM, in any edition. One shouldn't be required to shell out $30-$100 more just to understand something in the MM. If it's not clear in the base description, that's a failure of execution at that point.

 

[Sammael]

In that case are you sure it's D&D that you really want to be playing?

To be honest, I am pretty sure I saw him post in several threads that he has no interest whatsoever in D&D, but 4E may be to his liking. In other words, he is cheering for WotC to basically kill whatever it is that makes the essence of D&D and publish a totally new RPG under the banner.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I suppose the reasoning is that they only need one kind of hawt chixx0rs with bat wings. I consider that pretty weak reasoning.

Why? There's only so much space in the MM. Have one hot chick fiend and save the other for a supplement.

They're already doing it to gnomes, after all.

 

[Ashardalon]

Well, if monster creation is really as easy as has been said, I guess I can easily switch the succubus' alignment back to "demon," and create an 'artillery' role devil and name it the erinyes week 1. If I'm able to create monsters in 3.X, that should be easy, no?

Oh, and... if this is what they are doing to devils and demons, imagine what they're doing to the four breeds of celestials. Did I say four? Hmmm... I suspect only aasimon (angels) will survive the cut unchanged.

Considering hat this is apparently a consolidation based on appearances, I imagine that nothing much will change for most celestials, as they alredy have their unique appearances - guardinals with the animal appearance, eladrin with their fey-and-energy dual nature, angels as the archetypical winged humans... archons seem about the only ones that are in much danger, sharing some appearances that are also occupied by the other celestials. I'd expect that the holy light/fire aspect would be the one that would be played up (lantern archon, sword archon, and I believe I heard something about a fire archon?), though an equipment-based aspect may be possible as well (trumpet archon, throne archon, hammer archon).

 

[Sammael]

It was never clear in the MM, in any edition. One shouldn't be required to shell out $30-$100 more just to understand something in the MM. If it's not clear in the base description, that's a failure of execution at that point.

So, instead of adding three sentences for clarification (devils are blah blah blah they fight for blah blah blah and their tactics are usually blah blah blah; demons are blah blah blah, they fight for blah blah blah and they usually don't use any tactics whatsoever) they are "redesigning" the creatures to the point of nonrecognition?

I think I know what the main issue here is: pride. The new designers and developers want to leave their mark on the game NO MATTER THE COST, having seen how Monte Cook gained a near-divine status (from some people) after his work on 3E. They crave recognition, and they figured the best way to get it is to be controversial. It's perfectly understandable, but I don't have to like it.

 

[IanB]

Re: that mention of the ice devil as a yugoloth race, that's cool plot-wise. But man, I really wish they'd get rid of the word 'yugoloth'. How about just calling the NE guys 'fiends' as long as we're shaking up the terminology!

 

[Sammael]

They're already doing it to gnomes, after all.

No, they're not. Gnomes are going to be in the first Monster Manual. The fact that they won't be in the first PH doesn't mean they won't be a playable race. In fact, I am fairly positive they will be presented as a playable race in the FR Player's Guide (due out after the 4E FRCS, probably in September).

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

It should be noted that this creates a big opening (and perhaps demand) for Green Ronin or perhaps Paizo to do a 4E OGL Book of Fiends.