Pathfinder 2E Chaotic Clerics

[Celebrim]

Interesting the gods would keep the humans around after such an act of rebellion. What with 5 other free peoples to act through.

And with Karophet being a lawful evil fiend god. Does that mean you use a different structure to the Hells than D&D's Great wheel does?

Somewhat. I don't have any infinite sized planes in the cosmology, because infinite sized planes only make sense for an infinite number of prime material planes and my little multiverse is self-contained. I experimented for a while with infinite cosmologies, but although there are lots of cool things about them, I never could get them fully working. There are hints that the far realms are infinitely big, but its also not clear that anything in the far realms is actually real or whether reality has any meaning there.

There is no explicit 'great wheel' per se. Officially, the great wheel is one of the simplified illustrations shown to new students of the arcane, and it's even less accurate than the Bohr model of the atom. The outer dominions both partially preexisted and were partially created by the gods after the God's War. However, whether out of laziness or otherwise, their is just about a one to one relationship between those dominions and the canonical D&D dominions.

As to the inhabitants of the outer planes, there is a very different structure. For the most part, there is no parallel hierarchy of the gods and outer-planer natives. I've never really decided what if any canonical AD&D fiend lords are real, but all the celestials and infernals are definitely servitors of the gods and created in some way or the other by them. All the Fiend lords are vassels of dieties, just as all the solars and similarly high ranking celestials are vassels of their deities. The Modrons and Slaad are however unique. No one really knows where they came from. Yorlg and possibly Ssendam and some of the other Slaad Lords do know where the Slaad come from, but they aren't talking about it. Primus knows where the Modrons come from, but the only thing he's ever said on the matter is that they were created by necessity and its not clear if he means a being or simply because the universe couldn't exist without them. Personally, I admit I'm not fully clear on that myself, as I've never run a campaign where they were central to it. I do have a Secundus - the Prelate of Submission - as a bit player in the current campaign, but I'm not entirely sure what I'm going to do with him.

I've never really fully fleshed out the pantheon (it's supposedly got 1000 deities), and I've paid especially small attention to the LN's because you hardly ever get a player character that is LN and 'authority' is a tiresome trope as a foe, especially in D&D where players are all the time expecting all NPC's in authority to be incompetent or belligerent or both, so I've never really figured out the relationship between Primus and the deities. The Slaad everyone just stays out of the way off.

As for the why the humans are still around, the good gods knew that punishing the innocent was neither just nor kind. The neutral gods were afraid of upsetting the balance. The evil gods treated the whole affair as the discovery of a new shiny toy to use. The goblins advocated for it, but by this time it was clear Maglubiyet had an angle and there were serious questions whether the goblins were still a free people. The elves basically wanted them dead, but their chief Corwin vetoed them - the other elven pantheon deities largely believe that this is because his daughter Amaya (who is wed to Lado, who is Uman's son) pleaded for him. The dwarves largely agreed that the world would be better without them, and suggested that perhaps the humans should start over from scratch with a better thought out model (one that was more dwarfish). The fairies just shrugged and went back to thinking whatever it is that fairies think about, and Pitarian the God of Fools said that the should leave them alive in case they needed something to kill the gods with in the future.

 

[arjomanes]

How I run Chaotic clerics in my campaign (my campaign is a little different from boilerplate D&D):

Actually let's approach it from the other end. . .

So Lawful religions exist because the Law requires it. This is why all lawful religions are monotheistic in my campaign. The Law of the Lord is thus. And they're very top-down and very jealous. The king converts and baptizes the nation, overthrows the idols, burns the temples, and executes the priests who don't switch sides. So that's easy. It's easy to be lawful in a lawful nation. It's hard to be anything else.

Now chaos, why would you worship chaotic gods? Maybe it's tradition at this point, but those traditions came from somewhere. Why do you sacrifice puppies to Hecate at crossroads? To protect your travels (remember, drowning a puppy is how you give her a puppy. So find the cutest, most adorable one!) Same reason you have a shrine to her in your doorway, to protect you from evil spirits entering the home. You live in a cluster of buildings surrounded by woods in a world of monsters, demons, and evil curses. Or you live in a fantasy realm. Either way, you worship out of fear or out of a desire for power. Gods are just powerful monsters. Look at any polytheistic myth and you'll read about gods who took anything they wanted, who ravaged people, cursed them out of jealousy or to show them their place, who assisted whichever army sacrificed a bull for them or whatever. They were monstrous beings with immense power who could be warded against or placated, and who could give great gifts—even immortality—to those who won their favor.

And those traditions, you don't do them just because they're written down in a book. You don't do them because they're prescribed. You do them because they work. It's problem-solving. Chaotic priests will follow rites and rituals and traditions because if they do, they please the deity. Hecate wants you to give her a puppy. Poseidon likes horses. You think Alexander the Great would have defeated the Persians in the Battle of Issus if he hadn't thrown his imperial chariot into the sea for Poseidon? No way.

In the end, worship is a contract: you worship chaos for personal power and to win favor. You worship law for personal power and to win favor. You can either be part of a big hierarchical organization in a massive nation-state, or you can go it alone or with a couple friends with some horrible monster in the woods. The Almighty God of Law may be more powerful and more predictable than the Goat in the Wood, but it's not easy to become a Saint. Becoming the high priest of the Goat in the Wood may be a lot easier.

 

[Farealmer3]

Somewhat. I don't have any infinite sized planes in the cosmology, because infinite sized planes only make sense for an infinite number of prime material planes and my little multiverse is self-contained. I experimented for a while with infinite cosmologies, but although there are lots of cool things about them, I never could get them fully working. There are hints that the far realms are infinitely big, but its also not clear that anything in the far realms is actually real or whether reality has any meaning there.

I ran into the same issue when it came to "refining" the planes. Infinity tends to cause more problems than it solves.

I notice the goblin god is part of your pantheon even though many of the other names are homebrew, why keep Maglubiyet and not the others?

 

[Celebrim]

I notice the goblin god is part of your pantheon even though many of the other names are homebrew, why keep Maglubiyet and not the others?

Partly because I'm lazy. I steal a lot of stuff.

Partly because Maglubiyet is original in a way that the human deities tend not to be. That extends to most of the demihuman pantheons, because the writer tended to list the things that where important to that people and embody them, which I think is the right approach.

Human deities are almost always created by the wrong approach. The Forgotten Realms for example is a hodge podge of deities from the original Deities and Demigods, taken from multiple pantheons, sometimes with the name filed off and sometimes not, and primarily conceived precisely as "god of thieves", "god of magic-users", "god of fighters", "god of druids", "god of rangers", "god of paladins", and even what amounts to a "god of clerics". Plus a ton of villain gods that are basically the gods of puppy chewing. I never get the sense from any of that that any of the normal concerns a person might have are addressed by the religion. All the deities might provide easy picks for an adventurer wanting a single patron to write down on their sheet, but there is not much in the way of 'god of this part of life' nor anything in the way of narrative which is so important to polytheism.

If I change anything with my conception, it would be somewhat erasing the racial distinctions between the deities. That was one of the things that impressed me about 'The Book of the Righteousness'. However, I think I'd go for some middle ground between 'every god for everyone' and very distinct racial pantheons. I do want some explanation for how divided the races are, where you very much get the impression that everyone could all be one happy family if they are all serving the same 12 deities.

 

[Staffan]

Partly because I'm lazy. I steal a lot of stuff.

Partly because Maglubiyet is original in a way that the human deities tend not to be. That extends to most of the demihuman pantheons, because the writer tended to list the things that where important to that people and embody them, which I think is the right approach.

Human deities are almost always created by the wrong approach. The Forgotten Realms for example is a hodge podge of deities from the original Deities and Demigods, taken from multiple pantheons, sometimes with the name filed off and sometimes not, and primarily conceived precisely as "god of thieves", "god of magic-users", "god of fighters", "god of druids", "god of rangers", "god of paladins", and even what amounts to a "god of clerics". Plus a ton of villain gods that are basically the gods of puppy chewing. I never get the sense from any of that that any of the normal concerns a person might have are addressed by the religion. All the deities might provide easy picks for an adventurer wanting a single patron to write down on their sheet, but there is not much in the way of 'god of this part of life' nor anything in the way of narrative which is so important to polytheism.

If I change anything with my conception, it would be somewhat erasing the racial distinctions between the deities. That was one of the things that impressed me about 'The Book of the Righteousness'. However, I think I'd go for some middle ground between 'every god for everyone' and very distinct racial pantheons. I do want some explanation for how divided the races are, where you very much get the impression that everyone could all be one happy family if they are all serving the same 12 deities.

My favorite approach to religion in D&D is the one taken in Eberron.

The continent of Khorvaire has three significant religions: one based on a polytheistic pantheon, one based on an impersonal but definitely active force, and one based on a philosophy.

The pantheon is called the Sovereign Host, and consists of nine gods representing aspects of civilization: Life & Love, Law & Lore, Horn & Hunt, Hall & Hearth, Sun & Sacrifice, Strength & Steel, World & Wealth, Feast & Fortune, Fire & Forge. These nine are worshiped as a group, and they are considered an inherent part of the world. When the hunter is stalking her prey, Balinor is there with her. When the farmer is planting his field, Arawai is there with him. As the two return home after a day's work, Boldrei is with them in their home. It is very uncommon for someone to worship one of these gods above others - the farmer will certainly pray more to Arawai than others, but when he's taking his harvest to the market he will be praying to Kol Korran for the blessing of good prices, and when he's playing games in the tavern he will pray to Olladra for good fortune.

There is also a dark mirror of this pantheon called the Dark Six, generally representing less savory aspects of the world, and in many cases more "savage" aspects: Wave & Whelm, Rage & Ruin, Death & Decay, Betrayal & Bloodshed, Magic & Mayhem, and Chaos & Change. These gods are generally not given names, but instead titles: the Devourer, the Keeper, the Traveler, and so on. Civilized folks rarely worship these, at least not openly, but they are given their due. Monstrous races are more likely to worship these gods, particularly the Shadow - many monstrous races attribute their magical gifts to the Shadow. Some civilized folk actively worship the Dark Six as well, but in those cases it's more common to direct most of your worship toward a particular deity. Few people are dedicated to the concept of evil and savagery in general, but you might very well find assassin cults dedicated to the Mockery, and it's common for changelings and dopplegangers to worship the trickster god known as the Traveler.

As missionaries from Khorvaire discover other cultures, they often find remarkable similarities between the gods worshiped by these, although they are often worshiped under different names, and sometimes in different configurations. For example, on the continent of Xen'drik, near the city of Stormreach, you will find giant tribes worshiping Rowa of the Jungle Leaves, Banor the Bloody Spear, Ouralon Lawbringer, and Karrak the Final Guardian - which the Khorvaire settlers have identified as Arawai, Balinor, Aureon, and the Keeper. The giants in question, of course, think that the silly humans have gotten the wrong names, and in particular they have misunderstood Karrak and named him an evil god.

It bears mentioning that these gods have no concrete presence in the world. They do not have domains on the outer planes, and do not directly answer prayers. Divination magic that in other settings get answers directly from gods instead get those answers from powerful extraplanar beings who also claim to serve the gods.

The other main respected faith on Khorvaire is the Silver Flame. Unlike the gods, the Silver Flame has a clear representation in the world, in the form of a gigantic silver-colored flame that erupted from the ground a couple of centuries ago. However, the principle behind the Flame is far older than that - it is the collective spiritual force of almost all the world's couatls, which in ancient prehistory entrapped a number of archfiends within the world. The Silver Flame is more dedicated to the concept of Good itself, both on a more cosmic level (fighting and trapping fiends) and on a more personal level (treat people right). This differs from the Sovereign Host who may be overall Good-aligned, but that's more coincidental - they represent concepts that on the whole are Good, but they are not dedicated to the concept of Good itself. The Silver Flame is primarily worshiped in the nation of Thrane, where the Flame itself resides - there it is the state religion, and the Keeper of the Flame also serves as the Head of State of Thrane (unlike the other successor states to Galifar, who are lead by descendants of Galifar's last king). However, you'll find spots here and there where worship of the same force has developed independently, such as the orc/half-orc/tiefling tribes who guard the Labyrinth surrounding the Demon Wastes.

The third faith is not very well seen by others: the Blood of Vol. The Blood of Vol looks at the world and asks, "Who are these so-called gods and why should they be worthy of our worship?" They believe that every human and other living sapient have a spark of divinity within themselves, and that they were cursed with mortality by the gods so they would not have the time to develop this into becoming gods themselves. The Blood of Vol are associated with undead - from their perspective, undead allies of the faith are people who have given up their divine spark but put themselves beyond the reach of the false gods. They are at the same time to be respected (for their power and sacrifice) and pitied (because they have given up the chance of cultivating their divine spark). The Blood of Vol is particularly strong in Karrnath, where they were the official state religion for a while during the Last War, and supported the war effort with undead elite troops (beyond regular zombies and skeletons, but not as unsavory as ghouls or as individually powerful as wights or stuff like that).

In addition to these, there are a number of other religions, but those are either geographically isolated to distant regions, or only worshiped in small cult-like cells.

 

[Celebrim]

My favorite approach to religion in D&D is the one taken in Eberron.

To be fully honest, Eberron's religion is one of the few things that I really don't like about it.

It always struck me as religion as viewed by a person who was not religious and had no real experience with it. It's like one of those paintings people would look at in a museum, but would never care to hang in their home.

Further make note of the explicit connections between most of the deities and a particular PC class or profession.

 

[Farealmer3]

To be fully honest, Eberron's religion is one of the few things that I really don't like about it.

It always struck me as religion as viewed by a person who was not religious and had no real experience with it. It's like one of those paintings people would look at in a museum, but would never care to hang in their home.

Further make note of the explicit connections between most of the deities and a particular PC class or profession.

Other than the Book of the Righteous is their any premade setting whose religion you do like?

 

[Celebrim]

Other than the Book of the Righteous is their any premade setting whose religion you do like?

Not a lot of them. The Greek, Egyptian, Norse, or Hindu myths could be imported if you wanted to. They are well documented, detailed, and have plenty of depth.

But religions invented purely to serve a fiction rarely reach that level. The only other one that really impressed me was the five gods of Bujold's 'Curse of Chalion' setting, including 'Paladin of Souls', but not the later works that undermine the original conception of the earlier books by reimagining the deities.

Tolkien's Valar aren't bad, and they certainly work as a very generic Northern European pantheon, though you'd need to fill them out by detailing more of the Maiar that serve them as vassals.

 

[Farealmer3]

There are hints that the far realms are infinitely big, but its also not clear that anything in the far realms is actually real or whether reality has any meaning there.

Just to focus on this, I find it interesting you have the Far Realms in your homebrew. From what you said in other threads you updated to a modified 3e because it mechanically fit things you already had from previous editions. But that implies you already had a setting more or less done and just used 3e for it's mechanical aspects. But the Far Realms in it's modern form was a product of 3e. So what made you bring the Far Realm into your homebrew setting?

 

[Celebrim]

But the Far Realms in it's modern form was a product of 3e. So what made you bring the Far Realm into your homebrew setting?

I have had the conception of 'what lies outside the universe' for as long as I can remember. I honestly don't remember if I've always called it the 'Far Realms' or if I had some very similar notion ('Furthest Realm'?), but I certainly call it the 'Far Realms' now. The requirement to have such a place was inherent in doing away with the infinite multiverse, because I still wanted to retain the notion of 'unnatural' in some cases. As in, "Things that were not meant to be." The inhabitants of my universe - even the gods - don't understand the 'Far Realms'. The standard model is that the 'Far Realms' are the domain of potentialities, the place where everything that could happen but didn't happen exists, at least in potential. Some believe that it is a realm of ideas that were abandoned by the unknown creator before he created the universe. Some believe that it is actually other creations of the unknown creator (which would mean it was an infinite number of multiverses).

The earliest I can remember thinking about it was sometime in the 1980's when I heard of a Greyhawk deity named something like 'Celestine' which I knew nothing about, but from his name I conceived him of a god of outer space wandering far away from the world, a remote god of stars and astronomy little concerned with the world but rather with things that lay beyond it. As I said, I steal things shamelessly, so in he went. Along with that came the question of where what would become known as aberrations came from. For example, how did mindflayers get in the universe? The idea that they weren't actually the creation of any god, and were in fact somehow alien to the universe (as outlined in some Dragon magazine articles) appealed to me. From what became known as 'the Far Realm' they came. Eventually, most things now called aberrations became explained through the Iconoclasm - that time when mad wizards of lost power were making weapons to fight the gods.

On a personal note, since you seem so interested in my thinking process, the actual deepest reason is that I'm a monotheist myself and that like Tolkien, behind everything, I have a monotheistic view of everything. If the analogue of God is not obviously within the universe, then it must be that there are things outside the universe. Fundamentally the deities of my homebrew universe are too small to be the cause of it, so it must have some external unknowable cause. While no one in my universe can learn the nature of it, I myself know the nature of my universe and what lays outside it. I know things that the gods can only guess at, such as whether the Creator actually exists.

This is actually alluded to in the Slaad thread. The Slaad are one of the few things in the universe that have actually penetrated outside of it (Usurl, who precipitated the God's War, is one of the others, and it's possible Primus communicated with the creator at the beginning of time but I've never made up my mind about that), but because the Slaad can't coherently communicate period, they are unable to communicate what they know.