[Character Creation] Helpful Symmetry

[The Little Raven]

While I agree that few elves have ever been given strength penalties, the perception is that, as far as Third Edition is concerned, ranging from strongest to weakest, the progression goes half-orc, dwarf, human, half-elf, elf, gnome, and halfling.

Got any citations for what fuels this perception, because I can't find a single thing in my 3.X books that support it?

 

[Captain Eru]

Got any citations for what fuels this perception, because I can't find a single thing in my 3.X books that support it?

I have a feeling I’m going to get flamed for the following statement, but I’m going to say it anyway. I have already said that I agree with you that Gort’s statement had little to do with the game mechanics. I argued he was suggestion perception, or zeitgeist. So pouring over the game mechanics to disprove a zeitgeist simply won’t work. It’s a futile endeavour.

Dungeons and Dragons began as a way to take the mythological, those creatures, concepts, and fantasy at large, and bring it to the tabletop environment. Over time the game takes on a history of its own, diverging from the source material. But at the core, elves are based on the stories of the Norse Álfar and English elves. And while accounts vary, they were diminutive. It’s one of the reasons that elves remain shorter than humans in the game. That’s how they exist in the zeitgeist. Tolkien, Rowling, and other authors have made their own elves. But they all derive from the same source material.

Ask a random person on the street to tell you what they think an elf is, and I doubt you’ll find many that will describe a hulking creature that towers over humans. I’m guessing you’ll hear terms like slender, frail, petite, beautiful, skilled, or magical. But I doubt you’ll hear hulking, massive, tall, or the like as ways to describe them.

There is nothing wrong with the elf archetype. Not all elves fit it. But the majority do. I just did a search on Wikipedia for average adult height around the world. I wasn’t surprised to find that countries such as Netherlands, Iceland, Denmark, and Sweden were among the highest, while China, India, Philippines, and Indonesia were amongst the shortest. I’m not suggesting there is anything wrong with it, or trying to be racist in any way, but the zeitgeist is that northern Europeans are tall, and Southeast Asians are short. At least from what I read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_height, it would seem to be more or less accurate. But there are short Dutch people, just like there are tall Chinese people. There are strong elves, there are weak dwarves, but that’s not the most likely scenario.

 

[NaturalZero]

Rogues - Dex.
Rangers - Dex.
Wizards - Int.
Fighters - Str.
Clerics - Wis.
Warlocks - Cha.
Paladins - Cha.
Warlord....Cha? Str? Being a leader, I would think Cha. The marshal sure was.

Fighter Str/Con
Paladin Cha/Wis
Rogue Dex/Int
Ranger Dex/Wis
Warlock Cha?/Int?Con?
Warlord Cha/Str
Cleric Wis/Cha?
Wizard Int/Wis (from that feat) maybe somthing else?

I think its been hinted at that the Warlord with be Int based (Int for tactical savvy i suppose), though im not sure exactly were im getting this impression.

 

[Scholar & Brutalman]

I think its been hinted at that the Warlord with be Int based (Int for tactical savvy i suppose), though im not sure exactly were im getting this impression.

You're probably getting it from Rich Baker's Gleemax post about his Wizard/Warlord Karhun:

I thought about converting Karhun to a fighter instead of a warlord. After all, warblades would be in the defender role, just like fighters are. However, my desire to keep in touch with some arcane spellcasting meant that Karhun would need to multiclass into wizard (no warmage yet either), and thus could really use a good Intelligence score. Fighters have no real use for a high Intelligence, but warlords certainly do, and warlord abilities are often reminiscent of the White Raven maneuvers from Tome of Battle—Karhun had a couple of those maneuvers in his 3e incarnation. So it wasn’t entirely crazy to change up roles, and make Karhun into a warlord.



(At this point I’d tell you exactly what we’re up to with multiclassing so that I could explain Karhun’s wizardliness, but I’m afraid I can’t quite yet. Suffice it to say that multiclassing isn’t like it was in 3e. That’s as much as I can say right now.)



Karhun’s ability scores are: Str 20, Con 14, Dex 8, Int 17, Wis 10, Cha 14. I set my Strength high because most warlord powers rely on melee attacks, and it’s useful just for dishing out some extra melee damage anyway. Warlords also have class features and powers that make use of Intelligence and Charisma, so those are good choices for my next-best stats (and of course a good Int helps out with being a part-time wizard, as you might expect).

 

[Ahglock]

Got any citations for what fuels this perception, because I can't find a single thing in my 3.X books that support it?

Um they have the physical mass of like a 12 year old. Sure mechanically they don't have a penalty to strength but under the 3e description of elves they probably could get one and it would be thematically fitting.

They will be bigger in 4e(boo) so maybe it wouldn't be thematically appropriate in 4e.

 

[Gloombunny]

Not sure why I think this, but I feel like Dragonborns might be str and charisma, making them good fighters, paladins, and warlords.

This is my guess too, based on the new go-to god for paladins being a dragon.

 

[Virthe]

One thing to keep in mind is that characters now gain/select racial powers as they level as well.

These racial powers may include further boosts of stats, and this could either mean adding to other stats for more flexibility or boosting a stat which you already have.

Depending on the level these bonuses are offered and what is offered, races that start with the same stat boosts may evolve differently with more levels.

 

[lutecius]

both -lings were hinted to make good warlocks.
wouldn't it be counterintuitive if they of all races got a Cha bonus (assuming it still is the warlock's core stat)?

I would have thought a devil tainted race and thieving vagrants/water rats inspired distrust.
Intimidate for tieflings i can see, but Diplomacy? comely feys, noble dragon warriors, or familiar humans all seem better fits fluffwise.

well, i've never really got what charisma is supposed to cover anyway.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I think Tiefling's Charisma would mostly come from sheer presence when a rough and tough Tiefling Warlock starts talking you listen. Not because they are charming or alluring, but because when they are in your area and speaking you take notice.

 

[hong]

I'm getting a real Melnibonean feel from the W&M writeup for tieflings, by the by.