It doesn't look like the idea behind rare items is to be able to create "character defining" magic items, but to expand the normal power curve of items in a balanced way so that more interesting items are possible. I'm reminded of a blog post by one of the 4e designers linked here a few months back which was titled something like "Why we can't make interesting magic items" (anyone have a link to that?) It appears they are trying to address a perceived shortcoming in the item system while also doing away with the clunky magic item daily power limit.
"Character-defining" Magic Items
- Thread starter nookiemonster
- Start date
FireLance
Legend
I don't see why. Detect magic and detect lies could be implemented as the item granting the wielder training in the Arcana Skill and the Insight skill, or granting a bonus to the relevant skill checks if the wielder is already trained. The flight is also easily implemented mechanically, although the DM may want to put in restrictions to ensure balance, either by making it a daily power or requiring that the wielder land on a solid surface by the end of his turn or fall. As for the talking and the alignment, this is simply a matter of the DM role-playing the sword.
Marshall
First Post
And I'm reminded that the entire response to that article was "What?!? Are you nuts?!? Of course, you can! Do you even PLAY the same game the rest of us do?"
I must not have ever played D&D.
Even though spells or feats were generally available for players to choose from, magic/alchemical items- even in campaigns which contained "Ye Olde Magick Emporium"- were not universally available. Every last DM I've gamed with over the past 33 years has been very clear: just because an item exists doesn't mean you can get it with ease.
...which is not to say that there were not "character defining" magic items. Some were found while adventuring, either as part of a trove or wrested from the cooling corpses of the defeated. Some were heirloom weapons whose powers were only discovered over time. Still others were custom made.
But they certainly were not purchased or picked by the players off of a chart.
But they certainly were not purchased or picked by the players off of a chart.
DracoSuave
First Post
If a character's built requires and needs a specific magic item, how is it difficult to give them an item that defines them?
Hmmm... character's build requires a frost weapon... if only there was some character defining item I could give them... like some sort of... I dunno... weapon made of frost...
Ah...the Mighty Staff-Sling of Neverending Ice Cubes!
That definitely works, when they first get the weapon. But once they have a Frost Weapon +3, they'll never trade out the weapon slot for anything other than a Frost Weapon +4, and the DM doesn't have the opportunity to give out anything else interesting in that slot.
For instance, my character in my main campaign is a storm-based invoker of Kord with a bunch of lightning powers. The Thunderwave Staff makes sense thematically and mechanically, but since we were starting in low paragon, I could start with one. I even wound up turning down a module-specific staff with a higher plus later on, because its power was good but not designed to synergize with a bunch of my other power/item choices.
(We still don't know what the starting wealth rules are in Essentials, do we? What I hoping for is something along the lines of one of your core three items can be Uncommon, you can buy one Uncommon item with the rest of your gold, and if you want low-level Uncommon items, you can wishlist them and let the DM drop them in place of gold. If there's one critical item you can get it, but the rest of the stuff that fills out your item set comes through adventuring.)
Tony Vargas
Legend
In 1e, there was such a dearth of customization options for you character that you were prettymuch defined by your stats (like that 18/00 strength that seemed to appear a lot more often than the statistical 1:21,600) and your magic items, once you got any. Magic items were given out by rolls on random tables, with less powerful items showing up pretty often and really potent ones (like that 18/00 strength), showing up only on a series of improbable rolls. What magic items could do was completely arbitrary, there was no logical, mechanical, or design limit to the power of magic items, so only the need to roll several very specific numbers on percentile dice in a row 'balanced' some of the crazier ones. 1e balanced some major stuff like that - magic items, psionics, even classes - were deemed 'balanced' if you just had to make a tough roll (or series of rolls) to gain access to them. Obviously, it didn't really deliver game balance in any sense we'd think of it today, but it was fun, at the time. 2e added more options to your character, but they could still be easily overshadowed by a particularly powerful item.
3e finally started to get away from all that. Magic items were all manufacturable by PCs with the proper feats and spells, and derrived their power from the level of the creator and the spells in question. Thus and item a PC could make couldn't really overshadow him, since it was just a repository for some effect he could already produce. Magic items were still a vital part of the character, since they provided just about all of his AC, highly desireable stat-boosts, and, for non-caster, still, whatever interesting abilities you might be lucky enough to have.
4e didn't quite complete the process. 4e items are generally 'weak' enough that they won't over-shadow PC abilities, even those of the formerly-pathetic non-casters. A big part of that, of course, is that all classes have a lot of cool and powerful abilities to choose from, so they don't /need/ an extra-special magic item just to avoid sucking. Magic items remained vital sources of enhancement bonuses that were baked into encounter balance not just for AC or punching through DR, but for all your basic stats - attack, damage, AC, and other defenses. A basic kit of 3 enhancement-bonus-granting items is flat-out required. Well, unless you DM pushes the 'inherent' button - I've never seen one do it, but maybe others have (I'll have to do a poll).
3e and 4e balanced items with cost (and, for 4e, level) instead of rarity. That meant that low-level 'cheap' items could inevitably be accumlated in quantity at higher levels. In 3e, for instance, the lowly Wand of Cure Light Wounds altered the management of hit-point resources at mid-high levels in a game-changing way, while, in 3.5, the 'golf bag of weapons' syndrome reared it's ugly head to overcome DR. In 4e, there are some items that everyone seems to pick up eventually - accrobat boots and iron armbands of power and so forth. 4e dodged the WoCLW bullet by, well, eliminating it entirely, and instituting healing surges, /and/ making healing potions ineffectual at higher levels, being obviated by enourmously more expensive high-level potions.
The balancing with cost trick was probably a bad idea, it made the implied economy of the campaign world just wierd. 4e only had a small step to take: flip that inherent bonus switch on and leave it on, and, similarly, link the performance of other items to the level of the wielder, and the magic item economy could concievably have been rationalized - and magic items further prevented from overshadowing PCs. Indeed, items could have become quite rare, since they were no longer necessities, 'wonderous' for the unusual things they did rather than the numeric bonuses they granted.
For good or ill, 4e is stepping back from the precipice and stumbling back towards 1e. Balancing items by some theoreticaly 'rarity' instead of subordinating them to the character weilding them, or balancing them with enormously-increasing costs. If all goes well, it'll re-capture the feel of 1e without the extreme brokenness and let players and DMs settle on one or two really 'defining' items that really fit the character, and leave more pedestrian (if still vital) items to be made or bought. If not, well, we managed to have fun with overwhelmingly broken character-defining items before, didn't we?
3e finally started to get away from all that. Magic items were all manufacturable by PCs with the proper feats and spells, and derrived their power from the level of the creator and the spells in question. Thus and item a PC could make couldn't really overshadow him, since it was just a repository for some effect he could already produce. Magic items were still a vital part of the character, since they provided just about all of his AC, highly desireable stat-boosts, and, for non-caster, still, whatever interesting abilities you might be lucky enough to have.
4e didn't quite complete the process. 4e items are generally 'weak' enough that they won't over-shadow PC abilities, even those of the formerly-pathetic non-casters. A big part of that, of course, is that all classes have a lot of cool and powerful abilities to choose from, so they don't /need/ an extra-special magic item just to avoid sucking. Magic items remained vital sources of enhancement bonuses that were baked into encounter balance not just for AC or punching through DR, but for all your basic stats - attack, damage, AC, and other defenses. A basic kit of 3 enhancement-bonus-granting items is flat-out required. Well, unless you DM pushes the 'inherent' button - I've never seen one do it, but maybe others have (I'll have to do a poll).
3e and 4e balanced items with cost (and, for 4e, level) instead of rarity. That meant that low-level 'cheap' items could inevitably be accumlated in quantity at higher levels. In 3e, for instance, the lowly Wand of Cure Light Wounds altered the management of hit-point resources at mid-high levels in a game-changing way, while, in 3.5, the 'golf bag of weapons' syndrome reared it's ugly head to overcome DR. In 4e, there are some items that everyone seems to pick up eventually - accrobat boots and iron armbands of power and so forth. 4e dodged the WoCLW bullet by, well, eliminating it entirely, and instituting healing surges, /and/ making healing potions ineffectual at higher levels, being obviated by enourmously more expensive high-level potions.
The balancing with cost trick was probably a bad idea, it made the implied economy of the campaign world just wierd. 4e only had a small step to take: flip that inherent bonus switch on and leave it on, and, similarly, link the performance of other items to the level of the wielder, and the magic item economy could concievably have been rationalized - and magic items further prevented from overshadowing PCs. Indeed, items could have become quite rare, since they were no longer necessities, 'wonderous' for the unusual things they did rather than the numeric bonuses they granted.
For good or ill, 4e is stepping back from the precipice and stumbling back towards 1e. Balancing items by some theoreticaly 'rarity' instead of subordinating them to the character weilding them, or balancing them with enormously-increasing costs. If all goes well, it'll re-capture the feel of 1e without the extreme brokenness and let players and DMs settle on one or two really 'defining' items that really fit the character, and leave more pedestrian (if still vital) items to be made or bought. If not, well, we managed to have fun with overwhelmingly broken character-defining items before, didn't we?
DracoSuave
First Post
But why does he need to? The weapon is there. Just make the existing item more powerful. Quest for power for it. Have it get more powerful as part of an event.
Or don't give them a 'frost weapon.' Give them a frost weapon with a different unique power. Perhaps his frost weapon only turns half of his damage dealt to frost, but it also can, once per day, give him a defensive bonus as the sword sucks the movement from his enemies like the blade sucks heat from the air.
But, if his character build -needs- to have that frost-conversion to work right, then you're losing a big opportunity in not making that weapon as important to his story as it is to his statistics.
That would mean that, if given the opportunity, that thunderwave staff was a good choice.
I don't get your argument... that certain weapons are too good a fit and therefore can't be a weapon that defines the character? To me... those are the same exact thing.
Put a special name on it, give it a backstory and history, and make that thunderwave -special-.
