Character Optimization - Hybrid Assassin_Rogue

[JiggleFloyd]

Greetings,

I made this character and would appreciate some suggestions and feedback about anything that comes to your mind. A few things to note:

1) I'm primarily a Cunning Sneak Rogue. Assassin Hybrid is there for:

* Assassin Powers: There are some nice blast, burst, and ranged implement APs that add a lot of versatility to a straight melee Rogue build.

* Ki Implement: There are some nice Ki Focuses out there, such as the Rain of Hammers I have, which provides benefits even if I don't use it for my attacks.

* Cursed Shadow: Because Shadow Walk + Cunning Sneak is just awesome. It allows for easy concealment which boosts defenses and easy hiding for combat advantage as well as defensive hiding. Concealment works very well with my PP as well. If you know of a way to get very consistent concealment at this level without Shadow Walk let me know, but I really like this combo. I know of Armor of Dark Deeds but getting combat advantage every time to get concealment is more difficult than just moving 3+ squares and making a stealth check imo.

* I will consider Warlock instead of Assassin to Hybrid if there is a good reason to do so. I see Assassin being a better option for my melee build and DEX focus. I am open to suggestions though for a Rogue/Warlock combo as long as you don't suggest me to go ranged Rogue style.

2) CHA is secondary for a stronger Will defense, Sly Flourish, and CHA skills. I could make INT my secondary to get more benefit from some Cunning Sneak APs but eh...suggestions for secondary stat welcome and along with that, another race.

3) I use ki focuses to get my AC attacks to focus Will. I use wands for MM against minions and Eyebite when I'm out of range.

Adinimys, level 14
Drow, Assassin|Rogue, Ghost of Eventide
Hybrid Assassin: Hybrid Assassin Will
Hybrid Talent: Rogue Tactics (Hybrid)
Rogue Tactics (Hybrid): Cunning Sneak (Hybrid)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Wand)
Darkfire: Darkfire Charisma
Background: Born Under a Bad Sign, Cormyr (General) (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 13, Dex 24, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 18.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 12, Dex 18, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 12.

AC: 29 Fort: 21 Reflex: 29 Will: 25
HP: 87 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 21

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +13, Bluff +16, Intimidate +18, Stealth +23, Thievery +19, Acrobatics +21

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +8, Diplomacy +11, Dungeoneering +7, Endurance +8, Heal +7, History +8, Insight +7, Nature +7, Perception +7, Religion +8, Streetwise +11

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Versatile Expertise
Level 4: Versatile Duelist
Level 6: Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)
Level 8: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
Level 10: Backstabber
Level 11: Student of Malediction
Level 12: Cursed Shadow
Level 14: Mark of Shadow [Dragonmark]

POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Executioner's Noose
Hybrid at-will 1: Sly Flourish
Hybrid encounter 1: Gloom Thief
Hybrid daily 1: Grave Spike
Hybrid utility 2: Tumble
Hybrid encounter 3: Low Slash
Hybrid daily 5: Bloodbath
Hybrid utility 6: Slayer's Escape
Hybrid encounter 7: Killer's Ambush
Hybrid daily 9: Knockout
Hybrid utility 10: Shrouding Gloom
Hybrid encounter 13: Well of Shades (replaces Gloom Thief)

ITEMS
Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Rain of Hammers Ki Focus +1 (2), Gauntlets of Blood (heroic tier), Circlet of Second Chances (heroic tier), Sandals of Precise Stepping (heroic tier), Flowform Drowmesh +3, Periapt of Cascading Health +3, Ghost Mask Ki Focus +1 (4), Master's Wand of Eyebite +1 (2), Master's Wand of Magic Missile +1 (2), Subtle Bastard sword +3, Hand Crossbow, Crowbar, Disguise Kit, Fine Clothing, Footpads, Hunter's Kit, Adventurer's Kit, Inquisitive's Kit, Journeybreads (10), Ritual Book, Thieves' Tools

RITUALS
Knock, Masking Shroud, Secret Page

 

[jbear]

First observation (and someone might correct this), I believe rapier is no longer a superior weapon, it has been demoted in the last rules update to a military weapon. Which means your assassin weapon proficiency gives you access to it. So you have an extra feat slot available at level 2.

It's late, so more later

 

[JiggleFloyd]

First observation (and someone might correct this), I believe rapier is no longer a superior weapon, it has been demoted in the last rules update to a military weapon. Which means your assassin weapon proficiency gives you access to it. So you have an extra feat slot available at level 2.

It's late, so more later

I have the most recent Character Builder update and it still says that Rapier is a Superior Melee weapon. However, someone else from a Wizards forum said the same thing, mentioning new erata. So what's the deal?

 

[Nikosandros]

I have the most recent Character Builder update and it still says that Rapier is a Superior Melee weapon. However, someone else from a Wizards forum said the same thing, mentioning new erata. So what's the deal?

The rapier is now a military weapon, but this update has yet to be implemented in the CB.

 

[JiggleFloyd]

OK changed rapier to Bleeding Precision, open for more suggestions.

 

[Lord Ernie]

I made a similar concept once. The assassin part of the equation really doesn't help the character much in the damage department, but since most rogues have pretty situational encounter powers to begin with, you don't lose too much, either. That, and the warlock MC + cursed shadow feat makes for some very nice (albeit, IMO, somewhat cheesy) hiding tactics.

First of all: all I'm getting on Bleeding Precision is a Paragon Level ranger feat, so I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant to take there.

Pure optimization-wise, I'd take a look at the following:

If you have access to Dragon, there's a feat called Roguish killer, which is quite nice for a rogue|assassin hybrid. Basically, if you invoke your shrouds on a target that grants you CA and miss, you can deal sneak attack damage to it.

Similarly, I'd go for Low Slash on level 3, which is like the best heroic-level encounter power for a rogue. Minor action attacks are very powerful, allowing you either to go nova, or to get another chance at sneak attack damage should you miss with Sly Flourish.

Oh, and as a pure gimmick: given that you have Student of Malediction, you could take a look at Shadow Warlock Armor for free CA against a target all encounter long. Just use your 1/encounter curse on it, and never invoke the damage.

 

[jbear]

I second Low Slash as well. It means you can Invoke with an assassin power, Say Executioner's Noose, and Pull them between you and your Fighter and then Low Slash as a Minor Action with Combat Advantage and deal your Sneak attack damage. Good Stuff right there.

I also definitely second Roguish Killer. You're probably going to use that in every single encounter. Assassin's Noose is an very useful power if your DM uses interesting terrain or your companions create damaging zones etc. And one of them is bound to miss. At level 6 that is 4d6 dmg on a miss. Pretty sweet.

I have made a rogue/assassin hybrid (warlock) build as well and gaining Combat advantage is not difficult. So I prefer Human to gain the extra at will, which means I can have a melee attack that targets REF and an extra feat at level one which means I get to the benefit of multiclassing into Warlock as fast as possible. Humans receive a +1 to all defenses, so defense-wise my a human with CHA 16 has the same Will defense as a Drow with 18. Drow are great for getting Combat Advantage, flavourwise it totally fits, but I prefer my Hybrids Human.

I'll post my build and comment anything that differs from yours.


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Lele Human Assassin Rogue, level 11
Human, Rogue|Assassin, Shadow Assassin
Hybrid Assassin: Hybrid Assassin Will
Hybrid Talent: Rogue Tactics (Hybrid)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Light Blade)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Sling)
Rogue Tactics (Hybrid): Cunning Sneak (Hybrid)
Background: Occupation - Criminal (+2 to Thievery)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 19, Dex 21, Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 14.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 16, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 13.


AC: 26 Fort: 22 Reflex: 26 Will: 21
HP: 70 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 17

TRAINED SKILLS
Stealth +15, Thievery +17, Perception +10, Intimidate +12, Athletics +10, Acrobatics +15

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +5, Bluff +7, Diplomacy +7, Dungeoneering +5, Endurance +9, Heal +5, History +5, Insight +5, Nature +5, Religion +5, Streetwise +7

FEATS
Human: Cursed Shadow
Level 1: Student of Malediction
Level 2: Hybrid Talent
Level 4: Versatile Expertise
Level 6: Roguish Killer
Level 8: Deadeye Slinger
Level 10: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 11: Two-Weapon Opening

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Piercing Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Executioner's Noose
Hybrid at-will 1: Deft Strike
Hybrid encounter 1: Gloom Thief
Hybrid daily 1: Blinding Barrage
Hybrid utility 2: Tumble
Hybrid encounter 3: Low Slash
Hybrid daily 5: Twilight Assassin
Hybrid utility 6: Slayer's Escape
Hybrid encounter 7: Shadow Jack
Hybrid daily 9: Knockout
Hybrid utility 10: Seeker of Shadow

ITEMS
Shadowblade, Feytouched Drowmesh +3, Orc's-Eye Amulet +2, Rhythm Blade Short sword +1, Gauntlets of Blood (heroic tier), Muleback Harness (heroic tier), Rebounding Sling +2, Luckblade Rapier +2
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

I have prefered CON over CHA, because I tend to avoid the Born Under a Bad Sign Background, but fair game, if I were to take it, then CHA would be more useful outside of combat. Surges are pretty useful all the same and in this case it serves to lighten the penalty assassins take with such terribly low HPs.

1st level Daily: I have taken Blinding Barrage because it seems like a power that really turns a battle on its head. Damagewise Grave Spike is single Target and adds a little Ongoing damage (which in most cases will add 5 damage and then Save). The Blind Condition means I can do the same damage to every enemy in a Blast 3 (at the very least two enemies) and leave them Blind for at least one attack, and they grant CAdv to my entire group while the condition lasts. If your cunning with the power you will make sure to catch more than 2 enemies in the Blast however. Even if there are only two, Assassin Noose to reposition a 3rd, then AP to catch 3 in the Blast. Very useful power in a lot of situations, bound to make you far more loved by everyone in your group than Grave Spike.

Okay, now here's a real good reason to take a Rogue Daily at Lvl 1: Twighlight Assassin at lvl 5. For me this is one of those truly cool powers that makes the game fun. From your build it seems you are going for straight damage. But the cool thing about the assassin is it deals decent damage and does it in fun ways. Who doesn't like turning invisible? (Gloom Thief) Who doesn't like conjuring up a Shadow Double of themselves to fight alongside them? (Twighlight Assassin) But apart from cool it means you can flank with yourself for the entire combat and you gain a minor attack Assassin's power for the entire encounter which means (at least how i understand things) that you can Invoke with your minor attack and then Sneak Attack with your Standard attack. Pure Awesome. And cool.

Along the same lines I took Shadow Jack at level 7. Turning into someone's Shadow for a round. Fun. And if you are attacked and missed they smack their friend instead. If they hit ... well half damage. Your selected power is more damaging, but I haven't used that as the guidelines for my build. So feel free to ignore that one.

Level 10 Utility, Seeker of Shadow, good way to get into position at the start of combat and monster someone during the first two rounds you act or get out of a reconaissence mission gone fatally wrong.

As for the Paragon Path, well I haven't looked at Ghost of Eventide to compare.

Featwise I invested in my Sling becasue this character can function perfectly edging around the centre of combat, keepin moving to gain combat advantage and raining down the pain from afar, making the most of terrain with Assassin's Noose. But up close he can also handle the jandle as we say in New Zealand. Hence Two Weapon Fighting which opens up the fantastic Two Weapon Opening Feat. Crits don't happen that often but you are a monster when it does!

Anyway some stuff for you to chew on. Swallow whatever you want and spit the rest out like crud! Personallly I like my characters mechanically tight but I especially like them versatile and fun at the same time.

 

[JiggleFloyd]

Thanks for the feedback everyone, I really appreciate it.

Made some changes to my build based on feedback and additional playing around with the CB:

1) Changed to Bastard Sword + Versatile Duelist. I use the Bastard Sword with two hands. This adds an average of 2 damage every At-Will attack, more on Encounter/Daily APs, but I lose the +1 AR from Nimble Blade.

2) I purchased 4 Ghost Mask Ki Focuses. These things are silly. As a free action I can change any attack that targets AC to target Will instead and I don't have to attack with this Ki Focus to get this benefit, I just have to have it equipped. This is an encounter power item so that's why I have 4 of them to swap out during the encounter. This is like getting a +2 or +3 AR bonus to my AC attacks, which is why I switched to Bastard Sword + Versatile Duelist.

3) I picked up Low Slash for Level 3. I agree, it's nice because you can use it to get both Assassin's Shroud and Sneak Attack off in one round or to attack again in case you miss with the Sneak Attack already.

As for Roguish Killer I may get it a little later and have already considered it. I don't intend to use many Assassin attacks honestly; they are mainly there for burst and ranged when needed, so I don't intend to proc Assassin's Shroud too often. I plan to get 2 Rogue to Every 1 Assassin Encounter/Daily APs, so maybe I'll use 2 Assassin powers/encounter so Roguish Killer may or may not be used every encounter for me.

As for Human I considered this race but eh, with Drow I get Darkvision, a sweet racial power that adds to CA and survivability, and more dmg from +2 CHA. It just fits the Assassin build more I think, but Human is definitely viable. The extra feat and At-Will is what makes people choose Human, not usually the extra skill or +1 to defenses. I don't see myself needing another At-Will, it's more of a nicety as Sly Flourish is King imo as long as I can maintain CA.

As for Shadow Walk, I'm open to other options but here's the thing, it only requires 2 Feats and the Warlock MC isn't bad in and of itself b/c it gives me extra dmg + Warlock Implements. Shadow Walk makes Hiding and CA so simple. The way I see it without Shadow Walk I have to worry more about both maintaining consistent Concealment and CA. Armor of Dark Deeds is the best alternative that I have found so far as I can get concealment as long as I attack an enemy with CA.

 

[JiggleFloyd]

Open to more suggestions.

Also, I tried to remove Shadow Walk + Warlock MC Feats. Replaced with Armor of Dark Deeds Item and 2 damage dealing feats. This may be possible to pull off with consistent concealment and CA.

 

[JiggleFloyd]

Thanks for all the feedback, both in this forum and the Wizards form.

I made some fundamental changes to the build and would like to provide a summary for anyone interested. I decided to ditch the Hybrid along with the Shadow Walk and Warlock MC. I also changed some of my core items, utilities, and APs so that I can consistently have concealment, stealth checks, and CA.

Some benefits of switching from Hybrid:

* Improved HP by 14
* Trained in 1 more skill
* Picked up Shadow Step as an encounter power
* First Strike Rogue class feature
* Rogue Weapon Talent class feature

Other Changes:
* Items: Armor of Dark Deeds, Assassin's Cloak, and various Ki Focuses
* Feats: Merciless Killer, Acolyte of the Veil, and Skill Focus (Stealth). Also switched to Bastard Sword.
* Powers: Changed back to Fleeting Spirit Strike, it's just too good of an opener to pass up. Gloaming Cut at-will instead of Clever Strike. Ferret Out Frailty for Utility 6.

Summary: Again open to suggestions and feedback.

Adinimys, level 14
Drow, Rogue, Ghost of Eventide
Build: Shadowy Rogue
Rogue Tactics: Cunning Sneak
Rogue: Rogue Weapon Talent
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Ki Focuses)
Darkfire: Darkfire Charisma
Background: Born Under a Bad Sign, Cormyr (General) (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 11, Dex 24, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 20.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 10, Dex 18, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 14.


AC: 29 Fort: 20 Reflex: 30 Will: 25
HP: 101 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 25

TRAINED SKILLS
Stealth +26, Thievery +19, Bluff +17, Insight +12, Athletics +13, Intimidate +19, Acrobatics +21

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +8, Diplomacy +12, Dungeoneering +7, Endurance +7, Heal +7, History +8, Nature +7, Perception +7, Religion +8, Streetwise +12

FEATS
Level 1: Acolyte of the Veil
Level 2: Backstabber
Level 4: Versatile Duelist
Level 6: Versatile Expertise
Level 8: Weapon Proficiency (Bastard sword)
Level 10: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
Level 11: Mark of Shadow
Level 12: Merciless Killer
Level 14: Skill Focus (Stealth)

POWERS
Rogue at-will 1: Gloaming Cut
Rogue at-will 1: Sly Flourish
Rogue encounter 1: Dazing Strike
Rogue daily 1: Trick Strike
Rogue utility 2: Tumble
Rogue encounter 3: Fleeting Spirit Strike
Rogue daily 5: Bloodbath
Rogue utility 6: Ferret Out Frailty
Rogue encounter 7: Killer's Ambush
Rogue daily 9: Knockout
Rogue utility 10: Shrouding Gloom
Rogue encounter 13: Fitting Demise (replaces Dazing Strike)

ITEMS
Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Rain of Hammers Ki Focus +1 (2), Gauntlets of Blood (heroic tier), Circlet of Second Chances (heroic tier), Sandals of Precise Stepping (heroic tier), Ghost Mask Ki Focus +1 (4), Master's Wand of Eyebite +1 (2), Master's Wand of Magic Missile +1 (2), Subtle Bastard sword +3, Crowbar, Disguise Kit, Fine Clothing, Footpads, Hunter's Kit, Adventurer's Kit, Inquisitive's Kit, Journeybreads (10), Ritual Book, Thieves' Tools, Drowmesh of Dark Deeds +3, Sling, Shuriken (10), Assassin's Cloak +3
RITUALS
Knock, Masking Shroud, Secret Page