Characters made only for combat

[JacktheRabbit]

Here's what I'd do in a similar situation (for any character, whether it's the fighter with an 8 Cha or the bard with 18 and 10 ranks in diplomacy):

Let the player roleplay the encounter (if he wished to do so).

Apply a modifier of +2 to -2 depending on the RP-ing (0 if not RP-ed).

Roll a diplomacy check.

Affect the price depending on the result of the check.

This gives the guy with the 8 Cha a chance to get a good deal sometimes, but not as often as the one with a high Cha or good diplomacy score, just as the melee combatant with 8 str and +5 BAB will sometimes score a hit where the +10 BAB guy with 18 str will miss (but not often). The roleplaying modifier lets the players see that RP-ing does matter, but simultaneously doesn't allow the player's abilities to supercede the characters. Simple system.

I have considered that but I have one problem. As I said before I think combat focus characters alrady have anadvantage or social focus characters. So by letting the combat character do some roleplaying for a circumstance bonus is giving an unfair advantage. Should I allow a bard to get a possible circumstance bonus to his melee attack if he describes his attack and does so in a cool manner?

If I do then imagine how much this would slow down combat. Or worse remember that the combat focused character could argue that he too should be allowed to go for circumstance bonuses for describing cool attacks.

 

[Fenris]

Glad to know that my combat monster isn't since his dump stat is Wis (I went with the 12 Chr, call me a sucker for a concept). Bu

Doc, I think you are totally with in your rights to do this. Even if the guy wasn't totally a melee monster, any fighter will have a harder time in social situations than most other charcters, unless they work very hard at it. My fighter puts at least one crossclass rank in a social skill every level. It is not much, but it helps. Actaully I find my low wis almost as detrimental in social situations.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

First of all, an 8 charisma isn't that low. It's barely below average. As someone else pointed out, if you're giving this big a penalty for a -1 to an attribute, god only knows what you're giving to the guy with a +1 to the same thing. So the guy's slightly out-of-place at the ball. He's only just barely moreso than your average Joe.

Secondly, there are straight rules for this in the game already. NPC attitude adjustment. You know, where they start out neutral vs. everyone, and you make your charisma check to try and get them to be more friendly, and if you fail badly they grow more hostile. With a roll of d20-1, he'll mostly be unable to affect them, and sometimes it'll go either way, but he certainly shouldn't be penalized the way you're doing so.

It's as if a -1 to his charisma has earned the fighter some kind of Curse of Infamy, where every shopkeeper instantly takes a dislike to him from the start. In fact, I recall reading in the "unfortunate PCs" thread about a PC who had just such a curse. Suffice it to say, it was more than simply the result of having a -1 to a stat.

Lastly, as Tom Cashel said, D&D is a team sport. If there are bards and sorcerers in the group, they should be trying to help the fighter out in the social situations, just as the fighter's combat goodness keeps them alive in a fight. Aid Another would allow the sorcerer to give a +2 circumstance bonus to the fighter's diplomacy check. ("Hey let me tell you a funny story about my buddy the fighter here...")

And if the bard goes off to do his own thing while the fighter needs to buy some equipment? The fighter can always go off to do his own thing the next time the bard is dealing with a half-dozen raging orcs.

 

[buzzard]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Bad character, or bad role playing, or bad DM?

You are assuming a form of retail that is probably not appropriate for high ticket items in a pre-industrial society. Think about trying to buy a car in the real world: you haggle, you deal with the salesman, you dicker over price trying to get a good deal. Magic items and other big ticket things (which is what the original poster said he makes adjustments on) should probably be assumed to be purchased in a similar manner to cars in our world.

While this is certainly true in a historical sense, it would introduce a fair amount of tedium if applied in a consistent fashion.

For Doc, do you require every tranasaction to have negotiations? If you do, do you set a DC which sets the price?

To be quite honest, even if you did such a thing, a -1 is relatively trivial compared to the sanctions which you have applied. I'd say one ought to find a mechanism by which a diplomacy (or bluff, I've been to a souk) check result would set the price based on the real price.

OK we'll say the item cost 1000 as listed in the DMG (also assuming that only items of significant expense are to be considered).

For a result of 10, we'll let them have it at list. (considering that it is a listed cost, it ought to be obtainable at least half of the time.

"I'd like a shield"
"Sure, 1000 GP"

For a result of 5, the person pays 50% more.
"Urr, gimme dat shield!"
"Sure, 1500 GP"
[this kind of result is more indicative that the merchant is so insulted by your haggling technique that he simply wants you to leave]

For a result of 15, the person pays 50% less (down to say 10% above cost, the merchant has to make a profit).

"I'm on the market for a shield of exceptional quality, hmm this one doesn't quite fit my requirements, but since you are an honest looking tradesman of good nature I will offer you 550 GP for it. "
"Yes, noble sir, it is a pleasure doing business with one of your reknown".

Since we have set the increments at about 10% each, we can use this. If you want to weight the interaction more, you simply nudge up the required result roles (by 5 for example). In any case the non-charismatic soul will usually pay 10% more (at least) than someone of the baseline. Someone with a good heap of interaction skills will make a killing.

Thus, you can certainly have the fighter spend more. but he won't be getting hosed. It will also be systematic where he won't be able to complain that he's being singled out (as long as it is applied to everyone). Also since it is a raw result being used, you don't have to spend a lot of time figuring out the skills of the merchant in question.

buzzard

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

Answering the original post...

I think you're being a little harsh on him, but I appreciate the reasons why. I think the simplest solution would be to ease up on him a bit, but still make a point. A Cha 8 is only 'slightly' below average - compare it with a Cha 12? Would every shop keeper that saw a Cha 12 character automatically like him to the extent that they dislike this character? That's the key point for me.

I agree with your ideas about making him suffer the consequences of his actions, but I think you're being a little too harsh on him.

This is also a reason that I don't like point buy, because it leads to this mindset (IMHO, sometimes, In My Experience, massive generalisation etc) that 8 is a horrific dump stat that causes problems, when it's more like a slight disadvantage.

 

[Arnwyn]

First of all, an 8 charisma isn't that low. It's barely below average.
/snip/
It's as if a -1 to his charisma has earned the fighter some kind of Curse of Infamy, where every shopkeeper instantly takes a dislike to him from the start.

"Barely below average"? Hmmm... actually it would be 20% below average (assuming 10 is average). "Barely" can be open to interpretation. And, if you go back and read the posts, it is not a problem with "every shopkeeper". In fact, I believe DocM pointed out it's only a concern with big ticket/magical/rare items; where I think Wizardru's comments above apply quite well.

Lastly, as Tom Cashel said, D&D is a team sport. If there are bards and sorcerers in the group, they should be trying to help the fighter out in the social situations, just as the fighter's combat goodness keeps them alive in a fight. Aid Another would allow the sorcerer to give a +2 circumstance bonus to the fighter's diplomacy check. ("Hey let me tell you a funny story about my buddy the fighter here...")

Very sound advice, here. That fighter should allow others more suited to do the bargaining for him.

I also think Buzzard's suggestions above have some merit - a standard could be applied. Rolling for reactions *every* time a sale has to be made is cumbersome (though it may not be too bad, if big ticket/magic/rare items are dealt with often by the party).

 

[Pielorinho]

Consider also that the social characters ARE able to contribute during battles, most likely: while they won't be as effective as the fighter, they'll still be able to add something to the fight.

Make sure that you don't render the fighter totally unfun to play when it comes to social scenes. Even if he isn't the focus of the social scenes, he should still be able to do something -- whether it's winning the affection of the local soldiers by drinking them under the table, or simply playing the cheerful lout.

As I mentioned before, a low-charisma character can definitely contribute to the fun of a social scene, just by being a comic jerk or buffoon.

That's, for me, part of the balance: just as the bard doesn't behave best by sitting back and watching combat, discourage the fighter from sitting back and watching social scenes. Let him contribute, even if it's not in the most effective manner.

Daniel

 

[Guilt Puppy]

I say ease up a little -- good arguments for that in this thread -- but stick to your guns that Charisma (and roleplay skills) should be important.

I had a similar problem with the campaign I'm currently running -- all my characters used Charisma as a dump stat. The monk has an 18 Int (smart of the player) and is using his oodles of skill points to make up for it, but it's still hurting the party.

At the start of the game, I debated for a while how I was going to deal with that -- add some important r-p encounters and require checks, or what? Once the game started going, though, it kind of resolved itself: A lot of times came up when it seemed natural to ask for diplomacy/bluff/whatever checks (A note: I highly recommend incorporating these things, even letting them override how well the players actually role-play. After all, if a player skillfully stabbed me in the face, I wouldn't treat that as a critical hit against one of my NPCs...)

Of course, typically these situations are just resolved by whatever character is best at social interaction. Every once in a while, for whatever reasons (a combination of their choices and the state of things in the world), the poor-Cha players will end up having to make those checks on their own -- at which point, they'll regret the dump. (My players are normally good about not playing the "but the book says!" card, but when I allowed the Pantomime skill from the Kalamar Player's Guide, but switched the key ability to Cha -- you know, so it actually makes sense -- it raised a pretty big argument, which pretty much boiled down to "but I have a 14 Wis and only a 7 Cha!")

Curiously, I've found that these checks, while less common than others, can be some of the most important ones. The course of an entire campaign can be change by a fumbled Diplomacy roll -- and a decent Bluff can be the difference between getting some good information and getting a poisoned dagger between the ribs. That latter part was as close as any of my PCs have ever come to dying this campaign -- the group had split up to gather information, feeling safe in town, and the dwarf aroused some suspicions in the wrong person. In combat, he would have had someone right there to heal him -- instead, he had to stumble through town looking for his allies, as his Constitution slowly ticked away.

Did I set up the situation like that to punish him? Not at all. It was just the most appropriate form of resolution provided by the rules. The dwarf actually got bonus XP for that, because (aside from just the checks) he also role-played his character's carelessness and stupidity Not something I'd ever force or coax players into doing, but something that deserves a nod nonetheless.

So, in short, I'd say that simply penalizing the equipment really isn't the answer -- just employ the ruleset in a manner which makes sense. If social interaction is important in your game, the rules will express that Cha penalty appropriately -- if social interaction isn't important in your game, then there's nothing to penalize.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

"Barely below average"? Hmmm... actually it would be 20% below average (assuming 10 is average).

I'd love to know how you've come to that number. And what it means. Are you saying 20% of people have an 8 cha? That people with an 8 cha are 20% less charismatic than people with a 10? Something else?

"Barely" can be open to interpretation. And, if you go back and read the posts, it is not a problem with "every shopkeeper". In fact, I believe DocM pointed out it's only a concern with big ticket/magical/rare items;

I'm not sure if you're insinuating that I didn't read all the posts, or that I simply need to re-read them, but either way I had already noted the fact that it wasn't every shopkeeper. Only the ones that count.

I also think Buzzard's suggestions above have some merit - a standard could be applied.

Absolutely. That way there'd be a level playing field, and his 20 could net him good deals, just as the sorcerer's 1 would net him bad ones, fair across the board.

 

[WizarDru]

Lastly, as Tom Cashel said, D&D is a team sport. If there are bards and sorcerers in the group, they should be trying to help the fighter out in the social situations, just as the fighter's combat goodness keeps them alive in a fight. Aid Another would allow the sorcerer to give a +2 circumstance bonus to the fighter's diplomacy check. ("Hey let me tell you a funny story about my buddy the fighter here...")

And if the bard goes off to do his own thing while the fighter needs to buy some equipment? The fighter can always go off to do his own thing the next time the bard is dealing with a half-dozen raging orcs.

Well, DocM previously pointed out that after a previous incident where the sorceror blew a couple of haggling rolls badly, the fighter insists on going solo every time. He's not being edged out, he's pushing them away. It takes two to make a team, and it sounds like he's not working towards it any more than his companions, possibly less so.

As to the 8 isn't a low charisma issue, I agree. However, DocM's already established that this guy is suffering some serious circumstance modifiers on top of his low charisma. Picture this:

Gorthez had just finished shining the Censer of Insight in it's display case, when the door swung open, hard, hitting against a cabinet. A westerner entered, tall and menancing. A typical ignorant foreigner, he ignored the local custom of clapping his hands loudly three times upon entering. Dark spirits may have come in behind him, and he didn't clap to scare them away. Did none of these travelers seek to learn proper manners?

These thoughts were swept for Gorthez's mind however, when he actually caught sight of the brute. He was taller and more viscious looking than his average customer, and he had come dressed for violence. He wore chainmail of mithral draped over leather armor, covered in the blood of his enemies and scarred from battle with things Gorthez could only guess at. At his side, a nasty looking orc knife hung, but it was the huge zwei-hander slung over his back that riveted the merchant's eyes. Had this violent madman come to rob him?

"This your place?", came the question.

"Yes, humble master. Gorthez the Golden am I. Merchant of the bizarre and rare, I have much to offer..."

"Whatever. I need to sell some things. Heard you were the one to sell it to. Here."

With that rude interruption, the madman drew forth a wondrous crystal ball...spattered with dried blood. He eyed Gorthez hungrily. Mad westerners, he thought. He DID let dark spirits in. They were probably cursing his shop even now.

"Well," growled the madman, "HOW MUCH?"

From what I'm hearing, he's a foreigner who's not making the slightest effort to fit in in foreign lands where foreigners are, at best, looked askance. He's walking into a store in full combat regalia, being rude, with very little by way of reputation, personal charisma or skill at haggling...and he's upset he's not getting a good price. Doesn't sound that out of whack, to me.

edit: fixed typo