Characters made only for combat

[WizarDru]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Characters made only for combat

I'm not convinced that's true. I saw a documentary once, Cannibal Tours, that strongly suggested that bargaining was a foreign concept to folks in large parts of the world, but that tourism from Western countries introduces it there -- it's part of the expected experience in third-world markets. Really cheeses off some of the locals, too: they consider bargaining to be the height of rudeness. Even so, guidebooks will erroneously tell tourists to bargain.

That'd be Dennis O'Rourke's 1988 film about some US, Italian and German tourists taking a cruise down the Sepik river in Papua/New Guinuea. Not really a good basis for deciding that the barter system or haggling was or wasn't traditional in some ancient cultures. The barter system was the order of the day in the Pacific and Polynesian cultures, mostly because they hadn't really reached a point where trade could be based off of anything else. Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs and Steel" is a better source for this kind of information. O'Rourke's body of work is mostly about Western Civilization dominating everything in it's path...Diamond's work is more importantly about WHY.

But you're right, it's an elaborate and wacky little play, with the new guineas "playing native" for the tourists. But then, they do that in the US in some places, too.

 

[barsoomcore]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bad character, or bad role playing, or bad DM?

The PROBLEM is how he acts when he does poorly in social settings.

Does he just ignore the results of his Bluff or Diplomacy rolls? Well then you have an irrational player. Tough to work with someone like that.

Does he make insistent demands that he should get bonuses for his smooth talking, even though nobody else does? Ditto.

I fail to see what's difficult about this problem. Either the guy's a loony or you're not being firm about your own campaign. The rules, at any rate, are crystal clear.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Like DocM says above - came up with it using simple math! (9 would be 10% under the average, 8 is 20% under the average, etc., down to the absolute minimum of a 0 score.) As to the interpretation of that number, well I'm not saying anything there. In fact, in my original post, I said that it was open to interpretation. My response came simply because I saw a post saying that 8 is "barely" below average - something that is clearly up for debate (can 20% be considered "barely"? People will feel differently about that).

Ah. Well, I am an english major. But I believe that for us, 8 is only 20% less than ten in the very mathematical sense, because we aren't looking at a flat spectrum. 10 is the average of a bell-curve, meaning that while still close to 10 you aren't going to see a large difference. You're still in the vicinity of average, as it were. Only as you approach the extremes, where the numbers fall off sharply, do you see the numbers start to really take effect. So yes, (and I believe it was me who said it, or was one of those who said it,) 8 is "barely" below average.

But my whole spiel has convinced me that you're right. The subject is certainly up for debate.

 

[barsoomcore]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bad character, or bad role playing, or bad DM?

There in lies the problem with your point of view and my point of view. From where you are sitting, your calling it punishment, as if the DM were pulling out his paddle and giving the player a few whacks on the butt because he did bad.

There is no problem with my point of view.

You said it was a bad thing to make a character who's good at nothing but melee combat. I say that's crap. I don't even think YOU believe that.

When a character sucks at combat, he isn't being punished. He's simply getting his butt kicked if he tries to play the situation like a combat junkie would.

The same thing goes for the combat junkie, he isn't getting punished by paying more for high profile items, he simply is not as skilled as the charismatic characters are when it comes to haggling a good price.

And if you'd read my post you'd realise that's exactly what I've been saying all along. All I'm saying is that there's nothing wrong with having a character like that. It doesn't restrict the DM, it doesn't have any effect on anything. It's just a fact about that character.

But we (we as in those DMs who agree with DocM's pov) ARE using charisma for charisma related things. When you are trying to haggle a good price, isn't that using your ability to influence others? And isn't that ability charisma related??

Uh-huh. So? What are you arguing with me about? I've already laid out how much I agree with all that.

What I don't get is how there's any sort of problem here. The guy rolls, adds his modifiers and gets his results. Why the debate?

People are acting like this is some complicated situation that needs special rules to cover it. No. Chapter 3, Player's Handbook. Can it be any clearer?

Edit: "The", not "they"

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bad character, or bad role playing, or bad DM?

What I don't get is how there's any sort of problem here. The guy rolls, adds his modifiers and gets his results. Why the debate?

I agree with you. But the debate is because the original post said:

I have a character in my party who is made purely for combat. His dump stat is Charisma with an 8. Every feat he has taken is directly used in melee. Every skill point he has spent is combat related with the possible exception of climb.

So now when the character attempts to purchase stuff or have magic items created I generally have the NPC's stiff him. They demand full price and expect him to deliver material components that can be used to cover half of their material cost. They also take their time making items and rarely give him prompt service unless he pays extra for it. Finally if he says anything rude or complains they will get even tougher in their negotiations.

...which doesn't strike me as a guy rolling and getting his results. It strikes me as a DM disliking an 8 charisma and a combat-oriented PC, and flat-out ruling a big penalty. Some think the DM is well-justified in his ruling, some not. And some think that Doc should follow the set rules as written, or create new ones but apply them across the board.

...or was that a rhetorical question?

 

[Black Omega]

Yeah, but then a lot of DMs are control freaks with the social skills of a rabid baboon.

I have to disagree here. A GM control freak with the social skills of a rabid babboon have fewer complaining players. I've generally found that once I've started foaming at the mouth and jumping up on the table spasmotically, the complaining stops.

More seriously, I usually try to treat low Char is having no presense at all. They aren't intimidating or scary. Someone meeting the person might have trouble believing they are the serious buttkicker they have heard of since he's so unimpressive. For walking around with full weapons and armor, they'll get haressed by the townguard, like someone already mentioned, but that's not really charisma, the high cha person might simply have an easier time dealing with the townguard.

 

[barsoomcore]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bad character, or bad role playing, or bad DM?

I agree with you.

...or was that a rhetorical question?

Me? Indulge in cheap theatrics? Perish the thought.

Yeah, I read that, but it doesn't actually tell us what's going on. Is DocM just saying that when PC blows his roll that the merchants and so on are cranky, or is Doc M not even allowing rolls? He doesn't tell us, so we can debate all we like.

But there ARE perfectly good rules that cover this, and I can't see how applying them would fail to resolve whatever the problem is.

I guess I'm just one of those people who always looks for the simplest solutions. So shoot me.

(that WAS rhetorical)

 

[wolff96]

Wow.

I'd hate to play one of my current characters -- a dwarven druid -- in a lot of the campaigns mentioned in this thread.

He's got no social skills. And no interest in them. (This doesn't count Animal Empathy, Handle Animal, and a few of the other skills.)

He has a 6 Charisma. He doesn't deal with other people if he can help it AT ALL.

And yet, because other people in the party are often considering their response, taking their time, or whatever, he often pipes up. Often with some pretty comedic results.

I take my chances when I roll for Diplomacy or any other social skill. But you know, I can get up to an 18. And that's not very bad.

And it comes down to me agreeing with Barsoomcore. Roll the dice. Sometimes they come down in your favor, other times they don't. And merchants shouldn't automatically hate someone on sight either -- they should start hating you AFTER you start failing your Diplomacy checks. And believe me -- I know that one from experience!

 

[Arnwyn]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bad character, or bad role playing, or bad DM?

But there ARE perfectly good rules that cover this, and I can't see how applying them would fail to resolve whatever the problem is.

I guess I'm just one of those people who always looks for the simplest solutions. So shoot me.

(that WAS rhetorical)

Oka... doh.

As to rules, which should apply? I don't think there is anything (specifically!) on haggling or negotiating purchase agreements. Is it simply modifying an NPCs reaction? Or should it be Bluff? It could be Diplomacy, but maybe not. I see a poster above uses Appraise.

It's too bad the rules aren't as clear as they could be. Of course, the best option is to choose one and stick with it - but that could lead to more arguments/complaints. Hopefully not! In any case, I *can* see how applying them (what exactly?) would fail to resolve the problem. Besides, who wants to roll every attempt at negotiating for certain purchases? Now *that's* a detriment to the game. I think that a -1 modifier, and the law of averages, show that the most likely long-term result is a poor showing in negotiations. And I think DocM has been doing that... though not to the player's satisfaction, I guess.

 

[smetzger]

Re: Re: Re: Bad character, or bad role playing, or bad DM?

He should but buying things isn't based on charisma, I can walk into a shop pick something up take it to the counter and hand over my money without saying a word. It doesn't change the price, that's Charisma 8 for you. If I said "Thanks" when he hands me the change, and "Goodbye" on the way out thats Charisma 10, still the same price.

Except you most likely live in a society with large chain stores and fixed prices for items. I believe that a fantasy world would be more like dealing with a streat vendor in Mexico, your expected to haggle and if you don't you'll get taken.

And the DM in question specifically said this he was applying these price modifierers only for the more expensive and exotic items, like magic items. Kind of like buying a car, if you are a better haggler you will most likely get a better price on a car.