Characters made only for combat

[Utrecht]

Really what this comes down to is:

Does DocM beleive that haggleing is a non-roled or rolled "encounter"? If it is rolled, the PC's negative is already facored in (-1) to whatever you decide is used for negotiation.

If it is non-rolled, the negative must be applied somewhat arbitrarily - leading to thoughts of a player feeling picked on.

Thus, it seems that the solution would be to have purchase price (of significant items) be determined by dice roles. Good role equals lower cost/better terms. High dice roll means higher cost/less favorable terms - that why there can be no way that the PC could argue it.

That being said, I strongly feel that the Low Charisma PC must have a negative in social situations - and the DocM is doing just that - the manner and extremity are certainly open to personal preference.

edit for spelling -

 

[barsoomcore]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bad character, or bad role playing, or bad DM?

As to rules, which should apply? I don't think there is anything (specifically!) on haggling or negotiating purchase agreements. Is it simply modifying an NPCs reaction? Or should it be Bluff? It could be Diplomacy, but maybe not. I see a poster above uses Appraise.

Appraise clearly determines the worth of goods. Diplomacy clearly makes NPCs more friendly. Bluff clearly makes people believe untrue things you say. I think the rules are very clear.

What does the player do? How does he attempt to get his bargain? If he tries to make the vendor like him then it's Diplomacy. If he tries to pretend he's broke and can't afford it it's Bluff. Does he even know if he's getting a good price or not? Needs Appraise.

There isn't a "haggling" roll because you can try a variety of approaches to getting a good price. What approach the PC uses tells you what skill to roll on.

Besides, who wants to roll every attempt at negotiating for certain purchases?

Well, if he's going to ask for a discount, you're going to have to role-play it, aren't you? I mean, he's already committing to it, so just ask him to make a roll depending on what he tries to do.

If you want to make prices dependent on Charisma, that is, just apply an across-the-board modifier to the price of goods based on Charisma then fine, nothing he says can do anything about that anyway. I think that's an overly simple solution since unlikeable people are capable of wearing people down until they get the price they want, and really smart people are able to come up with plausible reasons for goods to be sold at a lower price, and really observant people can find bargains more easily, but whatever.

If you just use the skills as written, then smart people (with maybe a Knowledge roll) can use their brains, observant people (with a Spot or a Sense Motive) can find bargains and unlikeable people can just stand there and refuse to budge until the merchant sells it to them at the asked-for price just to get them out of their store. Everybody can play.

Low Charisma characters DO suffer a penalty -- on ALL uses of Cha-based skills. If they try and get deals by being charming and suave, they won't have as much luck as other characters. The dice will see to it.

Trust the dice...

 

[Spatula]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Bad character, or bad role playing, or bad DM?

It is not just the low charisma. It is also the fact that he has not spent a single point on any social skills

Yes, and that's already factored in. It's a Diplomacy check to change the attitude of an NPC. No Diplomacy ranks means he's just rolling with the straight -1 Charisma penalty.

Add to this the fact that he is far from home and obviously an outsider on sight.

-2 circumstance penalty to Charisma checks, then. Now he's at -3 and has a decent chance of pissing people off (changing their attitude from Indifferent to Unfriendly).

 

[Spatula]

Like DocM says above - came up with it using simple math! (9 would be 10% under the average, 8 is 20% under the average, etc., down to the absolute minimum of a 0 score.)

8 is 20% less than 10, yes. But then the 8's associated -1 penalty to a d20 roll is only a 5% difference from the 10's +0. Or looking at it another way, NPC ability scores are generated with 3d6 (the "assume 3 10's and 3 11's" is a shorthand, as the average of 3d6 is 10.5), so roughly 12.5% of the population have a 10 Charisma, while 9.72% have an 8 Charisma. That's a 2.78% difference within the actual distribution of humanoid Charisma scores. In other words, not that far off the average.

 

[Dreeble]

Heya:

I think my suggestion would be that the next time you hear the word "Unbelievable!" say, "All else being equal, market price really _is_ market price. However, with your character all else is not equal. Your charisma is below average and you completely lack any semblance of social skills [ranks] whatsoever. People pick up on these things."

I'd say he needs to roll (at -1) to _overcome_ his inherent drawbacks, to even reach normal results.

Take care,
Dreeble

 

[Ace]

The campaign has been a balance of combat and intrigue from day one. Why should I change a balance that works because he designs a character that sucks at half of it and doesnt like it?

I have another player who is a interaction junky. I have had sessions go by when the party is buried in a dungeon and there is little to no NPc interaction and all combat all the time. Does he complain that his character is getting the shaft? No.

I am in no way out to get this fighter. I am making him deal with his choices just like I have to deal with how quickly and efficently he can deal with his foes that I throw at him in combat. He has his strengths and weaknesses and I think both should come out regularly in the course of a game.

An 8 Charisma just means the guy is a little unlikeable.

To figure out an NPC's likely reaction you need to look at all of the PC's stats.. If this guy Int, Wis and Dex are low, yeah they probably will think doofus

But if they aren't that low and he has a high Str, Dex and/or Con they will likely be afraid of the big outlander with the sword

They might not want to do business with him

Or they might be obsequious, afraid the big barabarian will come and hurt them.

 

[kkoie]

Heya:

I think my suggestion would be that the next time you hear the word "Unbelievable!" say, "All else being equal, market price really _is_ market price. However, with your character all else is not equal. Your charisma is below average and you completely lack any semblance of social skills [ranks] whatsoever. People pick up on these things."

I'd say he needs to roll (at -1) to _overcome_ his inherent drawbacks, to even reach normal results.

Take care,
Dreeble

That I would agree with, his lack of a decent charisma and social skills raise the bar for him to get a normal result.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I'd say he needs to roll (at -1) to _overcome_ his inherent drawbacks, to even reach normal results.

Hel-lo double-jeopardy! I hope you make the bard roll to confirm normal hits in combat, too.

 

[Ace]

I have to disagree here. A GM control freak with the social skills of a rabid babboon have fewer complaining players. I've generally found that once I've started foaming at the mouth and jumping up on the table spasmotically, the complaining stops.

They also have fewer players (often none)

More seriously, I usually try to treat low Char is having no presense at all. They aren't intimidating or scary. Someone meeting the person might have trouble believing they are the serious buttkicker they have heard of since he's so unimpressive. For walking around with full weapons and armor, they'll get haressed by the townguard, like someone already mentioned, but that's not really charisma, the high cha person might simply have an easier time dealing with the townguard. [/B]

Or a high level type might just kill the town guard. After all according to the DMG something like 80% of the people in a city are 1st level


I am pretty sure a 28 point buy fighter and his buddies can take out a small town or at least take out the towns merchants. I have had many groups that consider this appropriate behavior

Player "You worthless trash I saved your village insult me will you"

20 rounds later "So what did we get?"

DM "Sigh"



Seriously though being a DM means keeping the game fun for everyone
and if your actions make the game less fun for one or more players (in a significant way) than either you need to get rid of the players or change your actions

I don't punish players (even for bad choices) instead I let them know what a better choice would be in advance and hold them to the consequences


The choice is yours, just remember a campaign isn't the property of the DM it is jointly owned by both player and DM

If you don't want players (and the chaos they cause) go write a book

Oh and a last couple of suggestions/comments---

If you are planning a lot of skill use in your game either tweak the skill system (add 2 points and more skills to the list) or encourage multiclassing -- the skill system as is is more designer for dungeon crawls than city scapes

Lastly-- Please don't feel like I am snarling at anyone in particular, this advice is just general and anyway I could be wrong

 

[rounser]

Churchhill and Hilter didn't look like much but they had buckets of Charisma and a lot of Models look amazing but have the personality of a haddock.

I think you're severely underestimating body language.

Your character can:

Stand up straight, chest forward.
Pose hands at belt, as if they belong there.
Stride confidently in.
Smile a little and nod slightly to acknowledge the shopkeeper's presence.
Look the shopkeeper in the eye, without staring.
Extend an arm and open a hand, palm upward as if about to describe something, and finally....open mouth to speak.

Or...

Slouch in, dragging feet.
Fumble and fidget with hands and sword hilt, as if not sure what to do with them.
Avoid eye contact.
Look pensive or uncertain, frown, and don't acknowledge the shopkeeper.
Hover unnecessarily, and interrupt when opening mouth to speak.

You get the idea. A lot of charisma kicks in before the character even begins to speak.