Characters made only for combat

[S'mon]

The other thing that bothers me about this thread is the Fighter had a 8 to put somewhere, where else should he have put it?

Sticking in Charisma strikes me as reasonable choice.

Hmm stick in INT and get 1 skill point a level that would be fun.

Stick it in Wisdom and have an even weaker Will save, worse chance to spot and listen, useful skills for an adventurer.

Stick it in Dex and be useless at range and get hit more often, stick it in Con and have low hit points, just what you want as a front line fighter.

Perhaps DocM would have been happy if he put it in Strength?

It's noticeable that D&D 3e does penalise a low score in any stat, unlike previous editions. A Fighter IMC needs good Int & Wis for reasons you noted, and good CHA if he expects to be a leader of men (eg via the Leadership feat) - CHA being particularly important for high-level fighters, therefore. High CHA + Leadership makes for a powerful Cohort & lots of followers. About the only character who can get away with low CHA is the skulking sneak-thief type Rogue whose skills are focused in other areas, and even he will be penalised when it comes to selling his ill-gotten gains. '8' is about the lowest you can get away with without obvious repercussions, which is why I think it's the minimum stat on point-buy: although most PB half-orcs seem to have STR 20 & CHA 6...

 

[Zappo]

IMC players sell at half market value and buy at market value. Haggling can alter that, typically by 5% to 20%, though exceptional rolls may go higher.

Of course, one of the players bought a shop and stated that he was going to sell for full market price. Can't say he shouldn't either; permanent magical items don't really lose value with use since they can and often do last thousands of years without losing power.

To explain why adventurers usually sell for half market value while shopkeepers sell for full price, I placed a bunch of taxes on magic shops, varying with the type of items sold (low for non-damaging potions and scrolls, high for weapons and dangerous magics).

Since that wasn't quite enough, I introduced a system of certificates - basically, if you buy an item that costs more than, say, 500 gp, reputable shops will give you a government certificate that confirms that the item does what the merchant says and that if it doesn't, you can sue him. Having the certificate made is costly (the government employs powerful wizards that use Analyze Dweomer and similar spells until the item is fully identified).
Most buyers won't accept to pay full price for an item that lacks the certificate, on account of the fact that the only proof you have that you're buying a sword +1 instead of a piece of shiny junk is the seller's word.

Mind ya, even after taxes and certificates, selling at full price instead of half still makes a heck of a lot more profit, so don't think this is an arbitrary penalty (in fact, it sounds very reasonable to me that, after paying the GPL of a small city-state for something, you get a certificate for it). The real meat of the problem is that merchants charge full because they have all the time of the world to wait for a buyer, they are always available, and people trust them more.

Finally, since the character is an adventurer before being a shopkeeper, his shop is closed more often than not and this makes it very difficult for him to actually sell stuff. He does sell at full price when he can, but some of the items are sitting in his inventory since the campaign's start. He still hasn't realized that he could employ someone to man the shop while he's away, and I'm not going to suggest it.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

The other thing that bothers me about this thread is the Fighter had a 8 to put somewhere, where else should he have put it?

Sticking in Charisma strikes me as reasonable choice.

Hmm stick in INT and get 1 skill point a level that would be fun.

Stick it in Wisdom and have an even weaker Will save, worse chance to spot and listen, useful skills for an adventurer.

Stick it in Dex and be useless at range and get hit more often, stick it in Con and have low hit points, just what you want as a front line fighter.

Perhaps DocM would have been happy if he put it in Strength?

AS a general rule when I create characters I move all ability scores up to 10 and then increase appropriate skills from there. Then again I always throw at least a couple cross class points into diplomacy and a few other areas so that I don't look like a hermit who just came straight out of his cave.

While 3E does punish poor scores more than previous versions this is balanced out by the point buy system that allows you to remove all negative stats fairly easily. You can have a 10 in every stat as a starting character and the only real loss is your primary stat will be a 16 instead of an 18.

 

[Bagpuss]

AS a general rule when I create characters I move all ability scores up to 10 and then increase appropriate skills from there.

That's your choice, personally I prefer to have at least one poor area, some area where I will have to depend on other party members to make up for my deficit, then I can excell in other areas and provide an advantage to the party that it might not otherwise have.

While 3E does punish poor scores more than previous versions this is balanced out by the point buy system that allows you to remove all negative stats fairly easily.

If the game didn't mean you to have the option of some poor stats, why doesn't it start with 10 in everything and 16 points to spend, instead of 28?

You can have a 10 in every stat as a starting character and the only real loss is your primary stat will be a 16 instead of an 18.

That's not correct either since it doesn't cost 2 points to go from 16 to 18.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

That's not correct either since it doesn't cost 2 points to go from 16 to 18.

You don't get it do you. Going from 16 to 18 costs 6 points. If you leave your main stat at a 16 then you have 6 more points to spend. That is 3 of your 5 remaining stats you can move from 8 to 10. On a 28 point buy that pretty well guaruntees you dont have an 8 unless you really unbalance your stats.

 

[Pielorinho]

Doc, do you think you make it possible for playing a low-charisma character to be fun in social situations?

Were I you, I'd talk to the player, let him air his griefs, explain that you want to allow socially-oriented characters their moments to shine (since he shines in combat), and talk to him about ways he can have fun in social situations while still playing a slightly low charisma. See if y'all can come to a mutually agreeable compromise.

Daniel

 

[Bagpuss]

You don't get it do you. Going from 16 to 18 costs 6 points. If you leave your main stat at a 16 then you have 6 more points to spend. That is 3 of your 5 remaining stats you can move from 8 to 10. On a 28 point buy that pretty well guaruntees you dont have an 8 unless you really unbalance your stats.

No you don't seem to get it either, why do you want to everyone to be mediocre? Whats so bad if someone want's an odd 8 or two so they can spend those points elsewhere and be a bit more interesting than 5, 12's and the odd 14.

An 8 doesn't mean your stats are unbalanced and neither does an having an 18. I personally would find a character with no stat lower than 10 very boring. I know the cleric in our party who has a Dex of 8, and has put no points in balance had fun crossing a rope bridge in full-plate. My dwarven fighter has great fun leading the party with his Charisma of 6, his leadership style leaves a lot to be desired.

While heros are generally better than most folks the more interesting one tend to have flaws.

 

[Utrecht]

No you don't seem to get it either, why do you want to everyone to be mediocre? Whats so bad if someone want's an odd 8 or two so they can spend those points elsewhere and be a bit more interesting than 5, 12's and the odd 14.

Actually Bagpuss, DocM is not questioning your character concept - he was questioning your math - which he was correct. If you as a player are willing to accept the penalties of your stat allocation, I do not think that anyone has an issue with it.

Where we get into problems is the subjective part of it - i.e. what exactly is the penelty - and that is where the statement trust the dice is important.

 

[kkoie]

While heros are generally better than most folks the more interesting one tend to have flaws.

I don't think DocM has a problem with characters that have flaws. If he had a problem, he probably would've said something to the player, before the player made his character. The problem, at least as far as I see it, is that the player was complaining about getting the bum rap. I'd say that DocM's player has more of a problem with flaws than DocM does. After all, we wouldn't be having this discussion if DocM wasn't conserned about his player not liking the situation as it stands.

At least, thats my interpretation.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

I don't think DocM has a problem with characters that have flaws. If he had a problem, he probably would've said something to the player, before the player made his character. The problem, at least as far as I see it, is that the player was complaining about getting the bum rap. I'd say that DocM's player has more of a problem with flaws than DocM does. After all, we wouldn't be having this discussion if DocM wasn't conserned about his player not liking the situation as it stands.

At least, thats my interpretation.

Basically you are right. He doesnt understand why he doesnt get great deals all the time.